Michael Saylor: Building Bitcoin Adoption - Exclusive Interview Part 2

i've always

been a big proponent of the idea that

companies are one of the most incredible

inventions of

human society like or civilization in

general is the ability for

a group of people to come together and

separate

management from operations and from you

know legally liable directors and

shareholders like separating each of

those layers being able to operate

towards the solution the solving of a

problem or some sort of solution

is um is a magnificent thing and

where bitcoin changes it is that i've

kind of called it responsibility go up

technology in the sense that

the responsibility element of bitcoin

and you know companies or nations

i think nation states is probably

pushing it too far but companies i the

the corporate model

of

solving a problem and taking the

responsibility for a fee

uh makes perfect sense on a bitcoin

standard

bitcoin is um

a magic technology

that offers benefits to

to any individual

or entity that adopts it yes

and uh

on the other hand the simplest way in

which to adopt it right now

is as a

long-term store value asset

if you're a private entity and you're

not subject to gap-based accounting

and

and the other ways you can adopt it

they have more friction accounting

friction

tax friction

compliance friction for example like we

can agree that would be good at banks if

banks uh banked bitcoin that would be

good

but uh many banks are afraid to do this

due to fdic guidance

i think today there was just a story

coming out that citigroup announced that

they will probably start to custody

bitcoin

so um

what we need is uh we need

to educate

the regulators educate the politicians

and then as the fdic and fasb and the

sec and the cftc and the occ and every

other agency

starts to understand and provide useful

guidance then all those companies will

start to take much larger positions

and then the investment community will

support that and

and bitcoin will spread as technology

and the best way to get them to provide

that constructive guidance is just

avoid taking unnecessarily adverse

adversarial positions

in the evangelism or the advocacy

we don't need to end the dollar and the

fed in order to spread the good shear of

bitcoin

we can make everybody's

every everybody in the united states

could be better off

right without

dramatic changes to the government if if

there was a hundred x as much bitcoin

they'd all be better off right now

without changing anything in the

government

so the world is full of challenges

there are a lot of i mean there are a

lot of uh

things that are inefficient in the world

we could talk about them for 100 hours

but i think

the whole point of laser eyes

is

focus your energy so if i'm gonna what

is a laser a laser is i have a certain

amount of energy and i narrow my focus

to a pen

head a pinprick

the narrowest focus possible and why do

i do that

so i can go the longest distance without

dissipation so every time you broaden

your focus you dissipate your energy and

you lose your reach and so

the question really is what what can you

accomplish and and how are you going to

accomplish it you

you're not

you're not going to fix

every company ever meant in the near

free bank in every gov future

with the bitcoin message

right i i tend to look at it a different

way which is

there are some entities that can adopt

it now and we should go find them and

help them do it

there are some places where it's just

going to be a very very difficult or

impossible then don't waste your energy

don't waste your energy fighting with

them

don't you're not going to change their

mind don't

don't uh squander your energy you don't

have time

and you don't have the energy

to pick fights with people

you know along the the road of life

right you should just move on

let me i mean let me offer another uh

possible metaphor here

let's say i had um i invented uh a

fusion

reactor and it generated infinite

energy

for

a dollar

i can give you enough energy to run your

family for the rest of your life for a

dollar

okay

so

i'm gonna go travel around the world

and where am i gonna be happiest

with that fusion reactor

well i go to north korea

and they find out i have it and i'm not

allowed to own things and they take it

away from me and they kill me okay that

didn't work so well

but i have a fusion reactor no

you know i maybe i take it to a place

where there's no rule of law so the

government just seizes it

right maybe i take it to a i take it to

a country

uh

where there's a hundred different tribes

and they're all warring with each other

and so i set up and i'm living happily

ever after and one tribe hears about me

with another tribe dancing and they come

and they kill me okay

no rule of law no peace

i go to another country and their taxes

are are excessive you know and they find

out that i have a nuclear reactor or a

fusion reactor so they just tax me to

death and i lose it

i mean that the short of it is you want

you have a great technology it's magical

you want to live in a country where they

speak your language

where

where there's a rule of law

where there's peace

where there's a police force

like what if your neighbor just comes

over with a gun and shoots you in the

head and takes your fusion reactor

right the fusion reactor doesn't solve

all your problems

right the fusion reactor doesn't doesn't

make afghanistan a peaceful place to

live for an american you know that

practices christianity either right

like there are there are simple common

sense observations

which is you have a technology you go to

a a politically supported place

you know and

and

you know you don't take

you wouldn't go to a country and say i

have a fusion reactor and i'm giving

away power for free

to everybody in the country and i'm

putting the the nation's electric power

provider out of business because they're

evil people because they sell the

electricity

right that's not the best way to do it

right

you're probably better off to go to the

to the country's uh monopoly energy

provider and offer to set up the fusion

reactor for them

so that they can harness it

you know and part of you would say well

they really should give away the energy

for zero

but they're going to charge a penny a

kilowatt hour

but if they were charging 10 cents a

kilowatt hour then getting them to lower

the price to a penny a kilowatt hour is

a benefit to everybody

and they get a piece of the action

and you're not a revolutionary

you're an evolutionary you're a

technologist

right and and we move forward

so i think that that's the case with

with any great technology

the technology is not enough for you to

go

you know anywhere and right any wrong

and

you don't really need to make it a

political fight in order to spread the

technology

most people you know if if they see an

automobile and it'll get them from point

a to point b in an hour instead of

walking for two days

they could be persuaded regardless of

regardless of political conviction and

religious conviction that the automobile

is a good idea

right they have automobiles in a lot of

countries that don't agree with american

politics

and vice versa

so

and likewise right crude oil aluminum

steel

automobiles airplanes have all been

you know

enthusiastically adopted

in communist socialist capitalist

autocratic theocratic states

even even enthusiastically adopted

in countries with hyperinflation

right they may be hyper inflating but

they still imp they still appreciate

steel in the building right if you ever

walk out on the 15th floor of a building

without the steel and the floor

collapses and you and all your friends

die

right then you could be persuaded that

steel is a valuable technology

and and the key there is whoever sells

the steel needs to make it in a

political statement

and i i think

i think with bitcoin bitcoin can be

spread everywhere on earth

you know as digital energy right as as

uh

as a technology

right if bitcoin is digital energy then

it's simply uh

it's simply the next evolution of

electricity

or oil

or atomic power or hydro power or solar

power

or the internet it's just the next thing

if bitcoin's got to be

a digital currency

then you're going to have to replace the

government

right either peacefully or in a hostile

fashion you've got to replace the

it's it's just like

given if if i were to try to calculate

the difference in effort one of the

things is like a million times harder to

do

but plus a lot of bloodshed right

castro replaced the government but like

would you want to do that i mean even if

i told you you could

like uh we had a civil war in the united

states right

like you don't really want a civil war

there's no winners and so

so i think that i think that the bitcoin

community has an opportunity

to embrace the technology spread it to

everywhere and be everybody's friend

and i think that that's something we

ought to be spending more time thinking

about and i think we should spend a lot

less time

fighting over the currency because

once you've made the point that the

currency has inflation

i think you just got to move on because

the next debate is whether or not gold

is better than bitcoin for fighting

inflation right

because you're not going to actually

eliminate the source of inflation

right that that will require regime

change if we demonetize everything

everywhere

maybe we cure half of the problem

which is good i think that's enough it

might take a hundred years

i i'm hard-pressed to think it takes

less than a hundred years

feels like it's it's like a

multi-generational exercise if we're

successful

and then at the end of it you're still

going to have debates about whether to

give four-year-old kids pharmaceutical

products to treat their add

right you're still going to have debates

over over religion you're still going to

have debates over you know someone at

age 87 is dying and someone wants to

give them a million dollar treatment and

someone else says that that's too

expensive

right you're going to have all those

issues and

you know someone's born and they just

have a

view that they should beat you

well it's going to happen

we're not going to

some other science or a technology

breakthrough might address some of that

problem

and we still got the problem of how do

we go to mars and should we stop there

and should we go to alpha centauri or

beyond these are all problems you know

and some people want to live forever and

that the problem is we can't live

forever and other people don't think we

should live forever and the problem is

stopping the people that want to live

forever right

and and those things are going to go on

we're not going to address those

i don't think we need to

i think that

i think that the the the root problem

that bitcoin has put their fingers on

is

there's a there's a lack

of of

conservation of energy in the

civilization there's a there's an energy

imbalance

and and everything that we think of as

money that we use is money

and and right now we use gold and we use

90 trillion dollars of currency

derivatives and 100 trillion dollars of

bonds and we use trillions of dollars of

equity

and we use collectibles

we use all sorts of other derivatives

there's a lot of things we use as money

all of those things we use as money

are are low velocity

inefficient

transmitters of energy

that that drain energy

and the cost of that you could measure

in the tens of trillions 10 trillion 20

trillion a year so some huge amount

right 20 trillion is the gdp of the

united states

right nominally measured so the cost of

the broken money or the lack of

of a proper monetary system

is many many trillions a year

compounding for the next for the last

hundred years for the next hundred years

fixing that

is uh it's no different than

if you're an athlete and uh and you were

bleeding

a pint of blood an hour

and i didn't stop the bleeding

right i mean

the number one rule of triage is stop

the bleeding first well first make sure

you can breathe

right three minutes without air and

you're dead and then make sure your your

bleeding stops because you'll bleed out

in a few minutes and then after that

figure out what the rest of the problem

is

so i think that we should think of

ourselves as trying to stop the bleeding

the source of the bleeding is a lack of

effective money

and the human race has never had an

a mathematically sound thermodynamically

sound money right goal was the closest

thing but it was it's way too

inefficient it bleeds energy too fast in

time and in space

right you can't really use it so

we now have a situation where 10 basis

points

of the civilization

has a limited

uh has it has an effective store of

value

and of course nobody has an effective

medium of exchange

right so you could probably say

it's like two or three

or four basis points of the entire

economy is efficient

99.95

of all the economic activity in time and

in space

is woefully inefficient

totally

and how inefficient

you know

it

we probably got to assume we're losing

10 to 15 percent of energy

if you were writing a calculus equation

right the time variable was losing 15

percent of your energy with time and

then there's another dissipation

coefficient which is how much energy per

transaction

oh there's that

the cost of the institutions there's the

cost of the um

the misallocation and male investment

blind consumerism you know the gambling

the the distortion of um

of people's time preferences so yeah

there's waste all over the place

well if you if you just come back to

this idea that we're like three basis

points one two three basis points uh

permeated

you can see that a factor of 10 you know

gets you to 30 basis points a factor of

100

gets you to three percent of potential

so a hundred x from now we're three

percent of potential

a thousand x from now

we're 30 percent

of potential

and so there's massive tremendous

opportunity here

and we can do this in a very cheerful

constructive way simply by focusing

people on the technology

and and just showing them how much more

efficient how much higher the quality of

living is

for any

entity any any part of our civilization

should they adopt

a better

energy technology

do you think that's tricky in

because

i agree with you in in some sense but i

feel like

the

the way

the level of craziness and the level of

intervention

and the level of kind of like

what alan watts would call like

do-goodery right like these you've got

people who

whether their intent is good or bad

irrespective their their process is

a little bit ridiculous and esg is one

of these examples right it's trying to

pretend your way into prosperity um

it's you know let's um

let's

wrap

corporations and institutions and

companies and at some point individuals

uh into another set of

arbitrary rules

for the stated purpose of saving energy

or doing social good or you know good

governance or whatever but you actually

end up doing the opposite so

you know in many ways bitcoin ends up um

in the firing line of that whether we

liked whether we like it or not and we

can be as apolitical as we want about it

but

you know there comes a point where you

need to sort of draw the line and say

well no you know this is

we're jumping off a cliff here this

behavior is ridiculous um you know sri

lanka i saw marty ben posted something

about sri lanka today who was one of the

first countries you know messing around

with this esg stuff and you know

they're having a

collapse of food and energy and all this

sort of stuff so

i feel like it's it's tricky it's

it sounds nice in principle to be

apolitical but at the same time it's um

it's almost impossible to to kind of

stay apolitical when

everything is becoming political

so i i think that you have to um engage

in the political dialogue

that's true but um

you also could do it in a constructive

way or you can do it in a in a

destructive way for example

um

the esg narrative is just used by a

competitor to undermine another

competitor so the oil companies

used esg to get people to shut down

nuclear power plants

okay so

if you're

if you're going to be effective you need

to identify

who your real enemy is

your enemy the enemy

of the nuclear power plants wasn't

people that wanted to

protect the environment the enemy of the

nuclear power plant was

lobbyists paid off by oil companies to

shut them down

and if you actually put if you actually

put that um

front and center you'd probably be much

more effective

um

when uh when online gambling was shut

down it was indian reservations uh

funneling money through

fundamentalist christian organizations

to a lobbyist in dc

that convinced um

convinced politicians that gambling

online is an abomination of the eyes of

god

okay so if you're supporting online

poker

you could declare war on

you know like all of the evangelical

christians and 25 million southern

baptists but they weren't really your

enemy

your enemy was a couple of marketing

people working for a casino on a

reservation that actually

you know staged a guerrilla marketing

effort and if you were to go to every

church

you know and protest against the

churches and say you know the churches

are our enemy and christianity is the

enemy

you would have picked a fight that you

can't win that was unnecessary

the esg objections to bitcoin they don't

come from environmentalists they don't

come from institutional investors either

they come from all coiners

it's the proof of stake networks that

that pay the lobbyists to lobby the

politicians they write the op-ed pieces

uh they plant the stories

they they pay for the academic research

all of this stuff is sponsored by the uh

by other crypto

competitors

and so if you were to say oh well the

europeans are stupid or the politician

is stupid or

the environmentalist or enemy or big

companies or enemy or the institutional

investors or enemy you would be

basically um

you would be uh

chasing

a red herring right you

effectively

what's going on is your enemy wants you

to go to war with someone 100 times as

big as you and they're laughing their

ass off

and you're taking the bait

it's like i go into a town

you know and

there are two gangs and they each have a

hundred warriors so i kill one of the

warriors from one gang and i pin it on

the other gang and i kill one of the

guys from the other gang and i pin it on

the first gang and i leave town and i

wait for the two gangs to kill each

other and then i come back and take over

you see it's there was that this was all

just a false flag operation

of sorts

so yeah that doesn't mean you can't get

engaged with politics but you probably

should keep in mind you know who you're

really uh competing against

generally

its competitors are weaponizing the

political process uh

to defeat their rival

right and

if i'm if i'm gonna do it right i have

to wrap myself in the mantle of being

environmentally friendly

or i have to be doing it for the public

good right like my

my competitor

whatever is bad for the environment and

then i get some politician to do that

the politicians are going to want some

moral justification but ultimately if

you follow the money you'll find that

that they're just supporting another

competitor

and it works both ways right

ironically the

the oil companies buried uh

the nuclear power companies using the

political process and then later on uh

you know the solar and the wind people

bury the oil companies using the same

process they're just weaponizing

the political process so you can't you

can't not engage but

um

you can be a little bit more thoughtful

about how you engage

and figure out who who really

is who is who is driving the narrative

and and generally most of these

organizations they're influenced by

their donors to do whatever

is right you know it's it's interesting

if you look at the american diabetes

association

who gives money to the american diabetes

association in order to in order to

fight diabetes it's not like coke and

pepsi and all those guys all the candy

companies

and uh and when you uh and when you read

the masthead it says something like

well we don't really know what causes

diabetes

okay

but we do know what causes diabetes but

but the the organization doesn't want to

say what causes diabetes because

to a certain degree their sponsors have

have a vested interest in

no one deciding what causes diabetes

it's better if it's just an unfortunate

disease

that we can treat with expensive drugs

well yeah but see at what point does one

draw the line and stop playing within

a false overton window right because

that's what

all of these things seem to be um i

guess

what i'm hearing from you is that the

strategy is

you know you use their overton window

and use their arguments um

you know kind of like a almost like an

aikido you know flip the energy back

um their way versus

you know the other strategy being more

uh confrontational and just saying no

that i will not operate in that overton

window like this is

this is true and this makes sense over

here not over there so i don't know it's

a tricky one i mean i'm obviously more

confrontational when i see something

stupid i need to point out that it's

stupid because

it's stupid um

and it's uh

it's a tricky one

yeah i i think it's complicated uh

your best strategy is to is is the

strategy which persuades the people with

the power

to support your point of view right

if you don't persuade the people with

the power to support your point of view

you haven't succeeded so you just got to

figure out how to do that generally i

find that being constructive

and cheerful and educational is a lot

more effective than being

than being toxic and confrontational

look on twitter if you're if you're

toxic and confrontational you just get

blocked and then you have no influence

over anybody that follows that person

ever again

so

and you know if you walk into a mayor's

office and you're toxic and

confrontational you just get kicked out

and that's the end of that and they just

assume that whatever you liked is wrong

and they and not only do they not give

you what you wanted they go out of their

way to to not give you what you wanted

because

it's personal

so i think

you never really want to make it

personal and yeah

there's that phrase those the gods would

destroy they first make mad

and the other point is

you know do you

do you want to succeed or do you just

want to fight

right

because the the i if we come back to sun

tzu and the like right the ideal thing

is to win the war without fighting

not not to engage in 100 battles that

you win

right and so

coming back to bitcoin what you want

is for every

nation

organization and individual to embrace

it and support it that's what you want

if you're spending a lot of time uh to

tell the world why somebody

is stupid and has character flaw

right you're ripping somebody else down

but that's not building up bitcoin right

ultimately

you got to choose

your fights very carefully

and i think there's some fights worth

taking for example i think it's

reasonable to fight the gold bugs

because we both agree with sound money

but every dollar invested in gold is a

dollar not invested in bitcoin

and that's a battle we can win we should

win because it's a it's a benefit to

them when they switch it's a benefit to

bitcoin when they switch

right i i don't think it's all that

constructive to fight a battle to

eliminate the you know the euro

like

the odds of actually um persuading 20

percent of gold bugs to abandon gold and

adopt bitcoin as their reserve currency

are a lot higher than the odds of

persuading 20 percent of the europeans

to stop using the euro

and leave the eu you see so so there are

some battles that just i don't think

make that much sense and other battles

make a lot of sense they're they're ones

that are winnable

and and by the way the best battle

it

if you must fight a battle the battle

you want to fight is against ignorance

and the past in favor of the future

everybody

wants to go into the future knows

they're going into the future and you'll

find

i would think 95

agreement if i said um

would you do you think modern technology

can make your life better

i think you find not not everybody some

people would say i want to live off the

grid you know with 19th century tech but

but most people would say yeah modern

technology is generally better and i

want to embrace it

so if you look at the really powerful

entities and companies that grow very

rapidly

they grow

by not forcing people uh to make a

difficult decision

i you know i give away free facebook i

give away free google

like how how hard is it for google to

spread to a billion people they give it

away for free

they don't tell you you have to abandon

your religion or abandon your nation or

abandon your citizenship or fight with

your your government or fight with your

employer they just give you free search

so

so i think that uh the best thing is

just give people technology technology

represents something better in the

future that came out of human ingenuity

um the and if you can do that you don't

fight with anybody

right you're just a your com pure

education

the next best is if you must fight

is uh fight a battle to persuade people

that they're better off buying a bitcoin

than buying a rental apartment

as a store of value

or they're better off buying a bitcoin

than buying a bar of gold

and explain to them why a bitcoin is

better than a bar of gold or better than

a rental apartment

or better than you know

a bunch of lumber in the back of the

house

and you know

if you frame it like that right the

nation of lumber is not going to get

offended

i mean we're probably

the the gold bugs get a little bit upset

but

again at the end of the day they're the

most organized

what about all the other

you know the person that wants you to

buy three apartment units and airbnb

them on the weekend in order to like

retire

that person's not going to fight you

back

so i think i think if you fight that

asset war

there's a hundred trillion dollars there

right we're 500 we're less than 500

billion so

bitcoin can uh can increase by a factor

of 200

from here simply by getting people to

change their asset allocations

and uh you know so between that and

technology those are just educational

pursuits

and then you're gonna you're gonna have

uh competitors that'll say

yeah well don't use bitcoin uh use my

b use my proof of stake thing

and do it without electricity and you're

gonna have to explain that

without the electricity

you don't have a commodity you have a

security

and a security needs to be registered

and taken public with full and fair

disclosures because it's centralized

you need to explain that in a cheerful

constructive way but you need to explain

it and then you maybe you need to

explain how

here regardless of all those things

right the bitcoin network is 10 000

times more secure and more

reliable

and more long-lived than the other thing

and so you have to explain that

but you're better off i i think a

classic marketer would say you're better

off to segment the market

you're better off to say

bitcoin is digital energy

it's a commodity you know you buy it

because you can't stockpile oil and you

don't want to own 37 rental apartments

and you and you don't want to carry gold

bars through airports that's why you buy

bitcoin these other things their

securities uh their their software

companies and software programs if you

want to invest in apple or google or

facebook or some proof of stake network

they're all investments make sure you

got full and fair disclosure make sure

you know who owns it make sure you know

what to expect but their investments

in in technology companies

and and bitcoin bitcoins competing with

you going to warehouse soybeans for a

decade

uh yeah

it's compendia against steel and oil and

natural gas and land

and it's a it's a digital property

digital commodity and it's the highest

form of digital commodity it's digital

energy it's immortal last forever you

can oscillate it at a thousand megahertz

it's a cool thing let me tell you all

about it

if you segment the market like that

no it's like well i guess i'd like some

of that

well what uh what else is digital energy

well there's another network a hundred

times smaller

you know check out the market cap of the

other proof of work networks they're one

you know they're

50 basis points

70 basis points of bitcoin so they're

like well i think i want to own the one

that's 100 times bigger

okay

and just

and then go knock on the next door

there's a lot of doors to knock on right

that's a good framing that's a good

framing i mean i mean

what about all the people who are kind

of

fed up with all of the overreach and

shenanigans particularly over the last

two years um you know because there

seems to be

i mean when i've been out there pitching

bitcoin there seems to be a craving

for the message

that

i know is more adversarial but

people seem to be

wanting or craving

like i think that that's there's a

political party in the political message

which is

you know the libertarian party

reflects that message

less government

right

the republican party

you know

reflects a slight difference from the

democratic party and the libertarian

party reflects a bigger difference the

ron paul

libertarian party kind of aligns closest

with what the bitcoiners would say i

think

if your position is you think the

government's overreached fiscally you

don't agree with their foreign policy

you don't agree with the tax policy you

don't agree with their domestic policy

you don't agree with their energy policy

you don't agree with their medical

policy you don't agree with their

education policy

you don't agree with

their trade policy their tariff policy

their domestic manufacturing policy

their labor

and union policies sure but that's

politics

you know what i mean like that's a

lifetime of fights and remember back to

laser eyes

each one of those fights is just as hard

in fact probably a lot harder than the

bitcoin fight so i think that if you

said you have to win all those fights

for bitcoin to be successful right

you're you're kind of you're you're

picking a hundred other battles to fight

and it's it's counterproductive and

destructive because

we need those people right there are

people that you know in the democratic

party we need them to support bitcoin

there are people in the republican party

we need them to support bitcoin you

might disagree with republican politics

you might disagree with democratic

politics

the majority of the country

i don't know if it's 50 percent or 80

but the majority of the country

disagrees with the libertarian party

otherwise they would have elected

somebody by now

so

those are those are political fights and

and uh

yeah

the bitcoin community is uh is very

aligned with a lot of those views right

and so am i

but my point is

you don't need

to fix

you're now dealing with the 50

other problems in the world

right you're trying to fix the schools

and fix the hospitals and fix the

foreign policy and fix the fiscal policy

and you're trying to

let's say it a different way why is the

currency collapsing because of all these

policy interventions so if you want to

fix the currency

you have to fix a hundred things that

are radical that are highly uh

confrontational that are that no one can

agree on

if you want to fix the fiat currency

or you can simply

educate people that bitcoin is better

than gold and bitcoin will be a million

dollars a coin

and you're not going to fix any of those

other things you're just going to fix

bitcoin and you're gonna make everyone

that supports bitcoin a hundred times as

powerful

and so you see like do you do you wanna

actually incrementally

do good

or do you just wanna fight

because i don't

you know i think that if you just want

to fight right

you can also go to ukraine and you can

fight on one side or the other side i

it's not clear to me

like we fought in iraq for 20 years what

we fix

like

like how much energy do you have to

fight over this

i would say

there's nothing there's no reason why

you can't get involved in politics if

you want to i just think that conjoining

the politics it's a mistake for bitcoin

to become associated with one party or

the other party

like is bitcoin pro-abortion or

anti-abortion i don't

i don't think it's either of those

things right it's better to stay neutral

and stay switzerland

at the at the point that uh the bitcoin

becomes politicized

at that point 45 40 of the country will

reject you reflexively without listening

to a word you say yeah

yeah i

i i agree with that i think um

what what

let's pick any of a hundred challenges

we have in this country name one thing

out of the 100 biggest disagreements we

have that we have worked through in a

civil fashion in the past 10 years zero

yeah

but so so there there aren't many alex

there aren't examples of six of

political successes

in the last 10 years

we don't have many

but there are plenty of examples of

technology successes

uber

technology success

right apple google netflix facebook

disney plus what's up

all the games even arguably

cryptocurrency bitcoin technology

successes we have many

and and why

because technologies are are neutral

apolitical

and there's a general consensus in this

country

that we are technology leaders

not every country right like let's say

we lived in a fundamentalist religious

theocracy that thought that technology

was evil from satan and we would all

burn in hell and

they were against newfangled gadgets

well then maybe uh the technology

strategy wouldn't be a good one in that

country

like for example i don't really think

in north korea right