Michael Saylor - Bitcoin Is Energy - Interview Part 3

i want to talk to you about engineering

um

you were on lex's pod recently and you

sort of said that

civilization gets a b plus in

engineering and and the philosophies

or the economic sort of area gets a d

minus

you know

largely because we've made progress and

you know we've had a bit of a wash uh in

that realm

but i guess

i want to ask one nuanced piece about

that is

technology or engineering seems to be

far more progressive in nature i mean

like as in we build

on top of it

whereas

philosophies or

principles or economics seem to be um

or morality for example seems to be more

principled in nature it's not something

that um

you know what once you've figured out

like a methodology for living you know

or a philosophy of morality for example

it kind of stays the same right the it's

it's not like engineering which you sort

of continue to build on top of

um

so i guess first is do you have a

thought on that and then next i want to

ask you about engineering for

complexity because i've got i've got a

little bit of a

digression on that

well i think that to the extent we

de-politicize things we make progress

the decision to use steel instead of

wood in a house

is is

not so much political

and when you build the steel building

it's demonstrably better

so the fact that you can demonstrate

virtue

in an apolitical way is what causes

science and technology to advance

it's not always right if you have a

theocracy where you can't right like

look what they did to galileo

um i mean russian stalin right

yeah if you have a culture that doesn't

let you uh do that in a political way

then you don't advance so fast

but uh

generally the advantage of engineering

disciplines is i can build if i build a

bad plane it crashes and burns and it's

obvious

and if i build a good plane and you get

it you fly

it's obvious

same with ships same with railroads same

with a lot of things

same with guns right i mean

you know you pull the trigger and blows

up in your face right you know it

doesn't matter whether

you're you have this political view or

that political view you prefer the gun

that works the way you wanted it to work

and so

those things um tend to be very virtue

driven and they're very darwinian too

right

whereas um if you look at uh the fields

of economics and philosophy we're still

debating the right form of government

for 2500 years

right democracy versus monarchy versus

autocracy oligarchy versus whatever it

is there's still a debate we haven't

resolved that debate really

so

i think that i think that those are

harder

uh

obviously my my philosophy is if you

want to better the human condition

you're better off to invest in technical

solutions

than

political solutions

and that's that's why i say

bitcoin as uh digital energy is a

technical solution

non-controversial

the successor to electricity

bitcoin as a digital currency is a

political solution

highly controversial

revolutionary one is revolutionary

and the other is evolutionary

one of them is political the other one

is technology technical

one of them

you know invites

engineering professors to consider

whether this is sound or not the other

invites economic professors

you know and and so you can see like in

winning the winning the battle of the

hearts and the mines are you more likely

to convince an engineer

that bitcoin is good or convince an

economist

that bitcoin is good i guess it depends

the kind of economist right um you know

maybe

the the modern politically influenced

economist will be a little bit tougher

because they won't it's been hard though

right yeah the majority of economists

you know aren't even in flavor

they're not even in favor of a

non-inflationary currency

so

my view is

we're better off to focus on the

technology than the politics all right

then then the the economics

but if and if we must get involved in

economics we're better off to focus upon

just asset allocation

of assets rather than focus upon

currency replacements

currency is always going to be political

right and the next logical fight is the

argentines fighting with the americans

over whether or not argentine

argentinian citizens can hold u.s

dollars

and and if it's going to be a debate

let the argentine government fight with

the u.s government over that right i

mean that

they the united states is not likely to

have all their citizens jailed

while they debate with the argentine

state department over the dollar problem

in argentina right

but you don't want as a bitcoin to go

down to argentina and have that same

fight

you know you're

you're going to end up in a cage

coming back to

the engineering thing so

i wrote a piece a little while ago

that looked at

i was taking some of jordan peterson's

work and

he's chapter two in uh his 12 rules for

life kind of

takes the reader on a journey about this

idea of chaos and order and he and he

talks about matter and what matters

and i guess the the study of mata could

be described as more engineering-esque

it's more empirical in nature

and particularly over the last 500 years

there's been a a great skew

in civilization towards the advancement

in the study of

matter right

and

things like religion or philosophy or

economics etc that kind of sits more in

the um in the realm of what matters and

you know that's a study of you know how

to live etc now

i've i grappled with this idea of

we've seen so much

technological or engineering type

progress

that

you know we

maybe

in some sense what we've done is we've

tried to take

all of the studies of

what matters so the more um

you know the more philosophical natured

things and try to place them in an

empirical box and use

engineering type modalities to

kind of fix them and this sort of

what i'm getting to here is like the the

idea of central planning an entire

economy or

you know complex systems being able to

be distilled into these simple models

and if only

the variables within the model so like

these human beings should just be

variables and if we can fit them in the

box then everything will be perfect and

we have these utopian ideals of how

society should be run so i guess

i i wonder whether

we can

we can fix

quote unquote fix uh things purely

through an empirical lens um you know as

engineers or do we

can we kind of get ourselves

stuck there and i mean the the end of my

essay was basically this idea that

bitcoin kind of fuses the worlds of

matter and what matters because bitcoin

is you know transcends just being a

technological

uh

idea like it's it transcends engineering

it's temporal social cultural and in

some sense even you've got a religious

element to it but

i wonder what your thoughts are there on

those two worlds because they are both

important if we skew too far towards the

empirical then

you kind of sanitize the life out of

civilization in a sense

yeah um i

i'm not quite sure

you're getting very philosophical on me

i guess what i have to say about bitcoin

is bitcoin represents it is

matter and energy and cyberspace

that's the big idea we ought to focus on

and we ought to be sending that message

to all engineers everywhere that that

without bitcoin uh you don't have

matter or energy

in cyberspace and everything that exists

in the in the

internet domain in the digital domain is

merely a simulation

or a model of something in the real

world

the significance of you know being able

to transfer something of value without

an intermediary

means

that if if i can transfer to you without

an intermediary i can instantiate it or

i can manifest it without an

intermediary and that means it stands

alone in cyberspace rather than being an

image of something that is in the real

world the image in the real world makes

it a security

whereas

when you actually manifest the actual

unit the satoshi in

the digital realm

it is matter

i can create something of substance

uh

in the digital realm

using bitcoin

and if that's the case then

that that introduces

the field of engineering and physics

into cyberspace

and that's what's been missing in in the

entire digital realm the digital realm

for the past 30 years

lacked matter and energy and you just

had simulations

uh and that meant that um

[Music]

computer science might have been

relevant but all the other sciences were

never relevant

like all of the all of the learnings of

mechanical engineering and civil

engineering and thermodynamics and

physics and material science and

aeronautical engineering

all of those insights they're not

they're not relevant if there's no

matter and no energy in the digital

realm

so i think that uh that what what makes

bitcoin magical is that for the first

time we introduce

this concept of um

i mean someone said

someone on twitter the other day was

talking about irreversible transactions

they said why was satoshi so fascinated

by irreversible transactions

you know and and they they approached it

from a you know

a very s i think a narrow point of view

the idea like well we can't have

irreversible transactions because that

allows

you know we can't fix money laundering

and we can't censor and and how do we

get control of the system

but my thought was

yeah satoshi wanted irreversible

transactions but the idea for

irreversible transactions came from the

great almighty when

the universe was created yes right

because it you know

in the beginning let there be light

right in the beginning there was nothing

and then there was light well light is

energy so the first thing that happens

is energy and then from and matter is

energy

and time flows in the beginning right

before time flew

before time

there was nothing yeah maybe it was a

little simulation at that point yeah

and so what happens well

when when you actually introduce the

concept of irreversibility you introduce

entropy

and time

right the the passive the progression of

time is the progression of disorder and

they're inextricably intertwined and the

matter and energy are inextricably

intertwined

and bitcoin is like that big bang

and in the big bang you know in the

beginning right there was nothing

and then all of a sudden the time chain

starts to form and there's

irreversibility and now there's the

passage of time

and now there's there's

electricity run through the shaw 256

protocol

to become digitized energy

a digital asset

and

the beauty of the protocol was it was

introduced as a conservative protocol

not an open-ended protocol

right uh one that uh

the universe has a bound of 21 million

and you know and because we had that

we had uh for the first time this this

sort of bearer instrument that

represents energy that's conservative

and if i can transfer it to myself to

yourself without an intermediary then i

can instantiate it and if i can

instantiate it i i can persist it

the ability to persist

energy

without an intermediary

is what allowed us to cut the cord with

the banks

now the money flowing over the internet

wasn't wasn't um

a reflection it wasn't a shadow of the

money

in the visa network it wasn't a shadow

of the money in a bank

right to paraphrase you know plato's you

know shadows in the cave terrible

it's like are you looking at shadows or

you're looking at the real thing yeah

everything was shadows of the real thing

until satoshi

and now we actually have the real thing

also known as uh you know reif reified

information but reified fancy word for

objective you know an object right a

materialization

materialized

information so you could say it's

materialized information or you could

say it was

dematerialized energy which is the

the opposite way to say the same thing

[Music]

so

if you're focused upon matter

and and matter is relevant because

matter is conservative

then

the most extraordinary thing is the

creation of matter in cyberspace

because

now i can construct a billion dollar

structure in cyberspace

apart from

any institution or individual right

you could literally release the thing in

cyberspace and it can live on its own

you want to you could in theory create

some kind of program an ai program that

was wealthy that could live forever

with assets or with wealth

that is uh

completely separate from

any any physical

counterparty

right there and

that um

that has all sorts of implications for

um efficiency through time and space and

persistence

yeah there's an engineering

specifically what you said about um the

forward movement of time i think

when that dawned on me a number of years

ago and i've kind of written about this

before and

i've

often said that bitcoin's greatest

impact on human civilization is the

reintroduction of consequence and and i

think

these two things

uh interplay with each other here is

that the fact that

bitcoin

makes matter and cyberspace to use your

words

kind of

when you're in a simulation and there's

no consequence and you can just behave

the way you want um you create these

sort of deviations it doesn't function

like real life anymore

but when you reintroduce a consequence

then you need to think twice about what

you're doing and it is like the forward

motion of time in reality because if i

go tomorrow and jump off a cliff and i

die there's no rewind button i can't fix

that um and it's the same way as if i

send some bitcoin to the wrong address

there's there's no reversibility so so

it's like a mapping

that the map actually fits the territory

for the first time in

civilization's history and that

consequence piece for me is really

interesting because then it links back

to

a healthier

study

of what matters

when we said before like the study of

what matter is like you know you've had

all these things like religion and

philosophy etc they've been

an attempt to try and grapple with how

one must behave when contended with the

consequence of actions in the real world

and

because we've kind of built all these

fantasy models when it comes to whether

politics or economics or all this other

shit that's going on in the world today

everything's kind of like playing

pretend like i saw on the news this

morning i was on the at the gym and i

saw um

president biden uh

tells the states to lower the price of

um

gas it's like

you can't just pretend your way into

like fixing a problem um and this is you

know bitcoin kind of removes that

ability to pretend

and

by reintroducing consequence it it like

i don't know it fixes that dynamic

between matter and what matters

yeah well you know we're skeptical of

central planning for obvious reasons

and

things that work well

work well because they're beyond the

domain of politics

so

economics philosophy politics all these

things are political in nature and that

means that central

uh central planners and politicians can

intervene and will intervene

and generally the interventions are all

well-meaning and ineffective

and the more interventions they have

the more pain caused and

the best cases are just well-meaning and

effective and economically crippling and

the worst case is they're well-meaning

and effectively and devastating they

create war and destruction and and

topple the entire civilization right

so things that are beautiful are things

in nature

that are beyond the reach of politics

a politician can't stop the force of

gravity

you know like all these people say you

know why would i ever want to have an

irreversible transaction well like when

you drop a rock off of off a cliff it's

irreversible transaction

why would you want to have it well

because every machine works based upon

those principles right if i want to

build a dam i need to know that the

water always flows downhill and then no

politician is going to cause the water

to flow uphill randomly you know per

code because it breaks the dam

internal combustion engines work on

principles you know

hot air expands pistons fire

you know

centrifugal forces at work

so

you can't build a mechanism

[Music]

without

energy and matter and natural law and no

political intervention

and

that means

if there is no matter in cyberspace

then nothing you do in ma in cyberspace

matters yeah and that's why you get

that's why you get 180 million fake

accounts on twitter every year

because nothing

matters

and uh that's why you get all the

garbage and the spam and the phishing

attacks and and the toxicity because

nothing matters

and when things start to matter there

are consequences

and when there are consequences

um

you know

there's nothing

there's nothing unhealthy in nature

because nature recycles every unhealthy

thing very quickly

i i had a goose on my property the other

day and it broke a leg

you know a gosling a small goose and

there's like 50 other geese too so i

have a lot of geese but this one broke a

leg and we tried to save it by putting

it in the pond and it lasted one day and

the next day i got up and i just saw a

bunch of goose

feathers

all around the garden no goose

oh well it's like

right either the fox got it or now got

it you know and and there's nothing to

be done about it you know you're not

going to see anything that isn't healthy

in nature

no lawyers no courts

right no no appeal

and um

you can't you know

you can't create a mechanism

without matter and energy

and so if i if i

what's the difference right well if if

the transaction is reversible

then i can transfer the money every two

months and the money velocity is six

times per year

if the transaction is not reverse or is

irreversible

i can uh

move it

every hour right

thousands of times a year on the base

layer but i could move it every second

on lightning

or i can put it on a layer three

and tweak it a bit and i can move it a

thousand times a second

so what's the difference between

reversible or political and and

irreversible

right and uh

i gotta say like today i picked up the

phone and i approved a wire transfer

from a bank to another bank

okay

i could do 10 transactions per week

on the phone

that's the 20th century way using people

and reversible transactions

and the velocity when you go to

irreversible and matter and energy

is going to go to a kilohertz or 10

kilohertz

or a thousand kilohertz

and so it's not like 10x better or 100 x

better or a thousand x better

it's like

try singing a paradigm yeah exactly

try singing a song by like tapping your

foot on a rock

as fast as you can

yeah and you see it's you can't

you know beethoven symphonies are not

gonna come you know

due to one guy hitting himself over the

head with a rock

[Music]

and that's what we're trying to do right

now alex right

everything we built in cyberspace right

they're shadows of reality

and as much as we tell ourself

we built something functional

it's uh

what is it it's like it's a grotesque

it's a grotesque monstrosity of

something functional it's like

you can spin up five hundred thousand

accounts a day on twitter haha they're

all fake

you know you can you can place one

thousand comments

a minute on twitter they're all toxic

garbage fake

right they're fake because there's no

consequences there's no matter there's

no energy so we create things

that have the appearance of

functionality but they're not truly

beautiful and they're not functional

and

if we actually take this to the next

extreme

consider consider all the buildings in

the world constructed with steel

now take away all the steel

and consider what the world looks like

now consider all the structures in

cyberspace built without bitcoin

nothing beautiful

every you know everything twisted and

perverted in some way shape or form

now now imagine we introduce a crypto

steel

this thing we call bitcoin digital enter

you know we run machines in cyberspace

on digital energy

and we build uh walls and buildings and

structures and fortresses in cyberspace

with digital matter

and now for the first time

there are consequences and things do

matter

and what what beautiful machines will we

make

and uh and what kind of you know toxic

garbage will we purge

from the system

you start just by giving everybody on

twitter an orange check and get rid of

all the bots get rid of all the fake

accounts

just get rid of everything

get rid of all the scammers i think

all the scammers on youtube i think uh

as far as i can see

there have been 25 000

michael sailor bitcoin giveaway scams

launched in the past six months

25 000.

okay so what's what's the cost to that i

spend a million dollars a year trying to

fight that

me

a million dollars a year

like with people like with these kind of

headaches you know it's

the world's full of that kind of stuff

and uh and

the problem is we just don't have uh the

right materials

working in the digital realm

so when i

go ahead no i was just gonna say it

reminds me of two things one is um an

analogy that i used in a recent article

called the blind man analogy i say that

the way

society seems to operate today is like a

a blind man attempting to build a house

with an elastic tape measure um and you

know bitcoin kind of gives us

a tape measure and actually gives us

sight so you know

it the the level of difference in the

two kind of structures

could be described by that kind of

analogy it's like a sighted person with

an actual tape measure versus a blind

person with a with an elastic tape

measure but

i wanted to just park that analogy

the the interesting thing about fixing

matter in the digital realm is that

you introduce cost you introduce

consequence

it actually i would argue that a lot of

these so-called innovation and this is

something that i think peter thiel would

probably echo is that

we've seen so-called software eat the

world but do it in a strange sort of way

where as you said like we've got all

these perverted innovations like we

don't need another

you know

dick pic app full of bots and you know

god knows what else is in there like

we've got actual problems in the sp in

the realm of atoms not of bits that need

to be solved but there is a skew to go

towards innovation in bits and bytes and

dematerialization all this sort of stuff

because

it's it's all made up it's all fantasy

there's no economic cost there's no

consequence so it's just like

this weird self-reinforcing game where

i i think most of the innovation all of

the brains all the engineering power

that the world has seems to have gone

into financial engineering and

mindless software engineering where and

all of the meaningful problems are not

being solved because there's been this

lack of

uh

anchor in the digital realm back to the

physical realm and i think that is a

an underappreciated element of what i

think bitcoin fixes in the world to a

large degree and i don't know

what that means long term you know maybe

quality over quantity you know maybe

pushing the world towards

you know solving so-called problems that

have been too

quote-unquote expensive to solve or the

opportunity cost

uh being too expensive because it's

easier to just build another random

software product that

doesn't actually solve a problem but

makes some vc some money

i think the real interesting innovative

work is uh to be done

on top of bitcoin either

uh developing expanding new lightning

libraries and the light you know

harnessing the lightning protocol or

building applications using various

parts of lightning protocol

or improving it

or building on layer threes and just

building proprietary centralized

applications

that that have bitcoin embedded in them

and i think that there's been an under

investment in that and there's been an

over investment in creating new base

layer chains

way too much focus on proof-of-stake

networks and like 19

800

coins

you know i look at all of it and and i

you know i'm hard-pressed to see but

just

endless recursive

financial engineering yeah without

solving the fundamental problems

whereas the fundamental problems that

are interesting are things like

like um if you can stream sats

then um you know why couldn't i actually

spend up a state of spaces where uh

anybody that shows up that meets a

certain credential filter

gets uh a hundred sats a second or a

thousand sats a second

and then i'd literally be like

like

shining sunshine on you

right like if i if i stream sats by the

second or by or by the millisecond it's

literally like shining sunshine sunshine

is light

sats are energy like quanta of energy

and if you did that then uh you could

turn into a marketing application

and i think people are starting to think

about this like marketing apps where you

like uh

listen to earn

like

why would i do that well if you're a phd

cardiologist and i want to attract a

bunch of phd cardiologists and

maybe i would set up something where

they get paid some money to come and

join my space to help me solve a problem

and so

that would be a marketing application

and every marketing person in the world

could create these systems that radiate

money radiate energy

and you can flip it the other way which

is i'm going to suck the energy out of

you

if you want to enter my space you're

going to have to pay 100 sats a second

or a thousand cents a second right and

that's a that's another

another form of friction

and then you can create

lightning walls or like a firewall where

you have to pledge

a hundred thousand or ten thousand sats

to enter across the wall

and you may forfeit it

you know like

you know what it's like if you enter a

burning building

if you go to a burning building in the

real world you would walk in and then

it's going to get hot

and then at some point you're going to

start to burn

and then eventually you'll be dead

right that's consequence now burning

building

can you create a burning building in

cyberspace you can create sunshine in

cyberspace or you can create a fire in

cyberspace you can create a heat sink

you can create a wall

you can rip down the wall

you can

you can create any number of structures

and and you can implement the structures

with the frequency that's machine speed

so you could create very intricate

mechanisms that might run a million

times faster than a physical mechanism

that have friction

friction and consequence and and uh they

exchange kinetic energy and potential

energy and you can use those things to

clean up

all the social media platforms you can

use them to solve enterprise cyber

security issues

you can use them to revolutionize

marketing you can revolutionize sales

you can change the nature of products

and services

the uh

people just need to think differently

um

what we've never

what if i could put enough electricity

in a tesla to drive it for 10 years

what if i invented a fusion reactor and

i put a sugar cube in the reactor and

that operated the car for a decade well

that would be kind of interesting an

everlasting immortal car

that draws energy from a reactor well so

what if i could do with electricity well

i can't because the battery would have

to be 10 000 times better

well what if i did it with a bitcoin

what if i put

uh 50 000 worth of bitcoin into the car

in the chip

and then what if the bitcoin ran through

a exchange and then it ran through a

electric power provider and the car was

just continually replenished

off of the bitcoin for the life of car

i could i could build a power source

into the car what if i what if i built

it into anything what if i built it into

the house

like it's uh

the the conventional way to think about

this is

is i gave you something with an

endowment to pay for its perpetual

upkeep

like a perpetual

a perpetual annuity

well what if i create a perpetual

annuity but i do it with bitcoin and

then i attach it to a piece a piece of

hardware

you could attach to a hardware wallet

right i mean like

you could you could attach it to a

program you could then if you then start

to go back to this issue of frequency

and vibration

and you create products that interplay

with each other you can create

all sorts of interesting new fascinating

products that might they might have

marketing impact they might have a

product value they might be a product in

themselves it might be a differentiator

might uh might have a security value

all of that stuff is

layer two layer three layer four layer

five innovation

and uh that market is really embryonic

not a little bit's being done there

right i mean you know some of the

lightning entrepreneurs but i would say

we're year two

of lightning and of that of that

ecosystem

and the lightning protocol is going to

evolve and improve it needs to and then

there are a lot of things you don't even

need that you could do it in a layer 3

proprietary

protocol but the these are the

breakthrough

ways to be thinking

and i guess the analogy would be

um when you use the same technology like

say you say you

if you've ever been to europe and you

travel around europe you see that all of

the buildings

um built before the before 1900

they're all six stories high

like pretty much six stories is the

engineering limit of masonry you know

concrete brick structures with wood

framing and the like

and also it's kind of the human factors

limit without an elevator

you know you can you can't walk up 12

stories even if you could build a

building but you probably can't

structurally

build the building and have it not

collapse

so

you got by the way i suspect that

in rome

the tallest buildings were also six

stories

so for about two thousand years maybe

three thousand years

people were pretty much stuck

and you could endlessly re-engineer and

attempt to improve things but the

materials are the limiting factor

when steel comes along

now you can re-imagine 10-story 20-story

40-story buildings combine steel with

you know the concept of um

of an elevator or the like with a little

bit of electricity

and uh and now the entire world of civil

engineering explodes with a renaissance

of creativity

and so materials

hold back a given field the steel was an

important material

oil

you know if you calculate the energy

density of oil and compare it to coal or

compare it to wind

i went from rowing to sail to you know

to

coal steam

uh powered uh engines to eventually

diesel but diesel was the big

breakthrough

and it changed all you know all

logistics all all maritime engineering

automotive engineering

you put steel together with

sorry you put aluminum together with

diesel

and you get the airplane

and you take away those two things right

no internal combustion engine

no no oil

and no uh

no aluminum

no steel the civilization disappears

so

i've used the metaphor crypto steel

right bitcoin really is that crypto

steel it's not just digital energy it's

digital matter but it's a very

particular type of matter it's it's a

tough enough matter

that you could build something that you

could reasonably

expect to layer

well i i

what do i want i want the building to

last

a hundred years but i also want it to be

a hundred stories high

and a hundred stories high is working

against gravity right and if you think

about the the energy and gravity on the

100th story versus the first you know

the first level of the building you

needed some kind of material that had

enormous

energy density metallic energy

and steel is the highest density

uh

metallic form of energy or the most

powerful metallic energy

manifested as matter

right but if you ever walked into a

steel refinery and you looked at how

they created it there would be no doubt

in your mind a lot of energy goes into

it

extraordinary energy goes into it in

order to in order to create that

material

so i think if we if we look forward in

the coming age the human races

is held back

by lack of certain materials

and when you find the material

then

you can leap forward and you can break

through all of these constraints

and we have not even scratched the

surface there must be ten thousand

different areas

that you can re-imagine

with bitcoin as the material we are we

spent a lot of time talking about

reimagining

uh

nation-state currencies

but i mean that's the heaviest lift if

you think about it right the single

thing people fight over the most is

probably nation state currency if we

just go back to reimagining a family's

balance sheet or a company's balance

sheet

or reimagine a store a value asset

and then we start reimagining um an

insurance policy

and we we re-imagine uh maybe a bank and

we re-imagine

a social network and we reimagine um

um a firewall

there's a lot of other things we have

yet to reimagine they're a lot less

controversial they're more they're

either financial innovation or their

technology innovation of sorts

all of those things

are are just waiting for the right

bitcoin entrepreneur

to go and build that product or that

service and that offering and run with

it and uh i i think that uh

it's a very auspicious thing for me i

think there'll be extraordinary

opportunities there and if we're gonna

make

if we're gonna make the human race uh or

improve the human condition

i think re-engineering all those things

with digital energy

is uh

is critical

and uh

and it's our opportunity

can i say one more thing by the way yeah

yeah

there is um a lot of confusion in the

entire crypto community about about uh

what i mean when i say digital energy

and whether bitcoin is digital energy

and you just see people trolling me all

the time saying it's not energy it's not

energy you know blah blah

you don't understand

and uh

i don't really want to get in debates on

twitter right because you're not going

to change somebody's mind about some

deep idea in 280 characters so you just