Strategy's Michael Saylor predicts bitcoin could reach $150,000 by year end

I'm here with the executive chairman of

Strategy, Michael Sailor. Thank you so

much for joining us.

>> Happy to be here.

>> Michael, this is your first interview

since the S&P granted its very first

rating to a Bitcoin focused company. Is

that correct?

>> That's correct.

>> So, tell me about this announcement,

what the significance is to the

industry.

>> Well, the news just came out today. S&P

put out a press release that they've

granted uh for the first time to a

Bitcoin treasury company a credit

rating. So, we were rated as a a B

minus. Um it's a start.

>> Uh we expect to move up in the ratings

over time, but we think it's uh it's a

very auspicious start because it

represents um institutional adoption of

Bitcoin backed credit. And of course,

the most exciting thing we've done this

year are four IPOs of four digital

credit instruments. Strike, Strife,

Stride, and Stretch of late. And now

that we've got an S&P credit rating,

that's going to open up uh the market.

There are hundreds of billions if not

trillions of dollars of capital that

won't buy an unrated instrument that can

go ahead and acquire a rated credit

instrument. So, it's a really a great

day for us and for the entire crypto

industry, I think.

>> And for the layman, how should they

understand investing in micro or I mean

rebranded since to strategy, but

investing in strategy, the public equity

versus these four new product offerings

you just mentioned? Well, Bitcoin is the

baseline and so what you want is the

digital commodity. You would buy Bitcoin

because it comes without that

counterparty risk and that's normally

been about a 45 V asset that's returning

about 45 to 50% a year. Our equity has

amplified Bitcoin. So we actually have

more volatility more like 60 and we've

been outperforming Bitcoin. So, the

people that want more volatility and

they want more performance would buy

that amplified Bitcoin equity, but there

are a lot of people that want uh half

and half. They want some of the upside,

a lot less downside, and they want a

dividend. And so, that's what Strike was

created for. It's convertible preferred

that gives you long-term upside, but

principal protection and an 8% dividend

in part. And then there are other people

that are long duration credit investors,

they buy things like Stripe, which is a

10% dividend at par forever, like a

100red-year bond or longer. And um then

for those that want extreme fixed

income, they would buy Stride because

Stride is the junior credit instrument,

but it yields about 12 1.5% effective

yield. So about 350 basis points more

than Strife. And um the final one is

stretch. Stretch is a treasury credit

instrument. It's uh for people that

don't want any they want the minimum

volatility like I have money I don't

need for 6 months and then I got to pay

my kids tuition or I got to pay my taxes

but I don't want to get paid 2% or 3% or

or less from the bank. So Stretch pays a

dividend which is right now 10.25%

at par. It's got most of the volatility

of Bitcoin stripped away. It's kind of

targeted at 100 and now it trades like

98.70

cents or something. So, it's very close

to that 100. And what you're getting

there is equivalent to like a one month

Bitcoin bond, right? So, if you're uh if

you've got a short-term focus and you

hate volatility, but you want to get

paid double or triple what the money

market would pay you, you would buy that

stretch instrument. And if you got a

massively high risk tolerance on your

Bitcoin maxi, you would buy the equity

and the other credit instruments for

people in the middle.

>> And talk to me about the nuance of the

being a tax-free dividend deal that

you're looking at here.

>> Yeah. Well, the beauty of a digital

credit instrument that's uh issued by a

treasury company like ours is we fund

the dividends by selling equity. And

when you fund the dividends by selling

equity, then the dividend becomes a

return of capital. And as a return of

capital, it means there is no tax on the

dividend. So when you're getting 10%,

you're getting 10% cash dividend yield.

And what happens is the uh the your

basis in the instrument uh is reduced by

the cash dividend. So if you buy $100

share and you get a $10 dividend a year,

then your basis goes to 90 and then

after the second year it goes to 80 and

after the third year it goes to 70. But

for the next 10 years, you have no tax.

You don't pay qualified dividend. You

don't pay long-term capital gains tax.

You don't pay ordinary income. You just

get a return of capital. So, so that

means the tax equivalent yield of one of

these instruments is like 16 to 20%.

It's like a bank that pays you 20%

interest. And so, that's a very special

thing. It's because we're we're uh built

on Bitcoin. uh a treasury company built

on Bitcoin is the most taxefficient

fixed income generator in the world.

>> And you I've seen this evolution of what

you're doing in the Bitcoin industry. So

5 years ago when we started talking it

was very much about this digital asset

treasury strategy which we're going to

loop back around to in a minute because

so many people have been following in

your footsteps there. But I as of late

there's been this evolution into digital

credit which we've just been talking

about and we're here at a payments

conference but Bitcoin isn't about that

payment element. It's not about the

transactional nature of cryptocurrency.

It is kind of about this dual structure

of of a credit offering. Can you can you

talk to me about how your thinking has

evolved in that?

>> I think the crypto industry has evolved

over the past 12 months uh months into

two different uh sides. There's the

digital capital side of the industry and

Bitcoin is digital capital, a long-term

store of value and digital credit

instruments that are built on top of

that capital. So we're we're um

accumulating the capital and we're

selling the credit. Um, on the other

hand, there's digital finance and the

digital finance part of the industry is

tokenized currencies, tokenized

securities, tokenized brands, and that's

all of all of the proof ofstake networks

and all the crypto exchanges and the

stable coins and all the tokenized

stocks and tokenized bonds and the meme

coins and that entire business is going

through a Cambrian explosion of

innovation as well. And JP Morgan is now

willing to accept Bitcoin as collateral.

At least they said that they intended to

do that. Talk to me about that component

where you're seeing Wall Street banks

lean into Bitcoin as collateral. What

does that

>> you know? I think the most exciting

thing is 12 months ago you couldn't get

a loan against Bitcoin or a loan against

wrapped Bitcoin like uh an ETF like

IBIT. Uh you couldn't get those loans

from any major bank in the nation. And

now what you see is that Bank of

America, JP Morgan, Wells Fargo, uh,

BNY, Melon are all are all beginning to

embrace this asset class. You see other

innovative banks, Charles Schwab, uh

Texas Capital, they're they're offering

uh pretty progressive credit terms

against either IBIT and now even many of

those banks are starting to talk about

offering credit against underlying

Bitcoin. I think in 2026, we'll start to

see uh some of these major banks like

City custody Bitcoin. BNY Melon start to

custody Bitcoin and uh companies like JP

Morgan start to issue credit against it.

I think it's all very auspicious for the

entire industry.

>> I was wondering when they were going to

start doing that because you saw the SAP

121 roll back and I mean we have the

Genius Act passed into law but that's

not the crypto market infrastructure

bill that seemed like it was what was

standing in the way of banks getting

comfortable with custodying crypto. But

are they going to do that absent further

hard and fast rules from Capital Hill?

It looks like the train has left the

station and now everybody's moving

forward.

>> Are you pleased with what you're seeing

out of Washington from whether it's the

White House or lawmakers?

>> I think uh I think the entire

administration has been and and the

Senate and the House have all been just

very very positive toward digital assets

consistently for the past 12 months. I

think we've seen a lot of very positive

initiatives out of Treasury. uh you see

enormous positive initiatives from the

SEC

uh and now you see uh we've got a new

designated head of the CFTC who's very

uh positive on digital assets in the

entire crypto industry. Uh I think the

White House couldn't be more supportive.

So, uh, I think that this 12 months has

been, uh, probably the best 12 months in

the history of the industry because what

you got was the White House endorsing

Bitcoin as digital gold. Then you got

uh, the SEC saying, "We expect that

securities will be tokenized on chain

and we're going to support it."

You got the secretary of the treasury

endorsing stable coins and saying, "We

believe that the future of the US dollar

currency is to be tokenized and exported

to the world and we're going to support

that." And uh now you've got a pro

crypto head of the CFTC. When you put

that together with all the other cabinet

members like RFK, like uh Tulsi Gabbard,

uh you know, like Howard Lutnik, etc.

that are coming out with very pro-

Bitcoin, pro- crypto initiatives. I just

really don't think the industry could

ask for much more.

>> It's been incredible to see what's come

out of the SEC with respect to crypto

friendly policies or roll backs of

policies that weren't uh all that

advantageous to the sector. You said the

White House could be doing more. What

would you like to see from them?

>> Well, I think that they've done

everything that they need to do at this

point. most of the work uh to be done is

going to be done by the banking

establishment in the western world. I

think it's uh at this point uh the

industry is going to 10x. It's going to

increase by a factor of of 10 based upon

activities that are taking place at JP

Morgan, at Wells Fargo, at Bank of

America, Morgan Stanley, you know, at

BNY Melon. It's the big household brands

at City, right? They're the ones that

are going to introduce uh Bitcoin and

digital assets to the next billion

people.

>> Uh this was the summer of the DAT

trades, the digital asset treasury

companies that kept springing up whether

it was holding Bitcoin or Salana or name

your altcoin. What do you think of this?

I mean, it's flatter imitation. The

greatest form of flattery is imitation

or whatever the phrase is. What is your

take on all of these datads? Is it a

good thing for the industry? Is it

oversaturated at this point?

>> I I think there was only one company

that was capitalized on a digital asset

in 2020 when we did it. We were the

first

>> and then there were about 10 and then

there were 20 and about a year ago there

were 60 and then there were 120 and now

we're exploding to 250. I think it's

indicative of the digital transformation

of the capital markets. I think we're

going to see 500 companies, then a

thousand, then 2,000, then 5,000

eventually. I I don't know why every

forward thinking company wouldn't start

to hold some digital assets on their

balance sheets. So, I think it's an idea

as time has come. I think it'll be good

for the entire industry, uh, the digital

assets industry, but I think it's also

good for the 50,000 publicly traded

companies that aren't capitalized on

digital assets. It's like it's like

saying, "Well, I've noticed 250

companies have the internet and have a

website now. How many is that good or

bad for you?" And I think eventually

every company has electricity and every

company has a website and every company

will have digital assets because there's

smarter, faster, stronger ways to create

shareholder value.

>> So many of my conversations over the

last few days have been with traditional

payment networks. So whether it's a Visa

or an AMX and the work that they're

doing with the generative AI players

sometimes in the context of Agentic

Commerce or other ways to just be a part

of the I don't know the cutting edge

what the financial stack looks like now.

Where does cryptocurrency fit into that

or Bitcoin in particular? Well, I think

that um if you look forward, you can see

that there's a billion AIs that are

going to want to do business with a

billion AIs representing you and me and

8 billion people and 400 million

companies. They're going to want to do

that business at the speed of light.

They're going to want to be trading a

billion times an hour, not a million

times a second. They're not going to h

they're not going to have any patience

for 20th century techniques. they're not

going to want to wait for a week for a

wire to be transferred. So, I think it's

inevitable that you're going to see

stable coins, especially US dollarbacked

stable coins that are going to explode

from a it was a hundred billion business

a year ago to 250 billion to 500 to a

trillion to two trillion. Eventually, I

think there'll be 10 trillion worth of

uh stable coin moving at the speed of

light.

millions of times a second.

And I I think that um that'll be the

medium of exchange in the digital

economy.

And then I think the store of value, the

capital asset in the digital economy

will be Bitcoin. These AIs are going to

want to capitalize on Bitcoin. If you

want to release something in the cyber

space and have it live forever, how are

you going to capitalize it? You're going

to load it up with some Bitcoin. The

Bitcoin is going to continue to

appreciate in value. So, um, you don't

need to be a person to own Bitcoin, and

you don't need to be a person to move

stable coins around. And one thing I'm

sure is that people are not going to

think as quick, and they're not going to

be as smart and they're not going to

work as hard as the robots and the AIs

are. So, it'll be a digital economy on

digital rails with digital currency and

digital capital. And that again is

auspicious for the industry.

Uh but also it's good for the human

race.

>> I'd be remiss not to ask you about where

the industry is headed with respect to

the markets and and the price charts and

all that. And I I say that keeping in

mind that we saw this huge surge in the

price as we saw the spot bitcoin ETFs

come online and a lot of that

institutional money flow in. that was

absent. To your point, the banks

actually custodying the cryptocurrencies

themselves, which has been seen as

another potential unlock these digital

asset treasury strategies. Also more

upside, it seems in the crypto uh you

know, in the crypto charts. Talk to me

about where you see Bitcoin hitting at

the end of the year and in a year from

now when we're back in this conference.

>> Well, I think Bitcoin is going to

continue to grind up. Uh I think the uh

volatility is coming off of it as the

industry becomes more structured with

more derivatives and more ways to hedge

it. Our our expectation right now is end

of the year it should be about $150,000.

And that's the consensus of the equity

analysts that cover our our company and

the Bitcoin industry right now. I don't

know why it won't grind up to a million

dollars a coin over the next four to

eight years. Uh, I would think not less

than four, not more than eight. And of

course, my long-term forecast is it goes

up about 30% a year for the next 20

years, and we're headed toward $20

million Bitcoin.

>> Michael, thank you so much. Yeah, my

pressure.