21 in 21: Michael Saylor on Bitcoin, AI, and Advice for Builders

Michael Sailor, welcome to Presidio

Bitcoin and the 21 and 21 show. I'm so

excited to have you here.

>> It's an awesome day.

>> Yes, you hit like summer in San

Francisco and uh it's beautiful out.

Just

>> happy to be here. It's glorious place.

Very inspiring.

>> Thank you. So, I have some questions

laid out. So, we're going to try to get

through as many as we can in 21 minutes.

Are you ready?

>> Yeah, let's do it.

>> Okay, let's do it. So the first question

is, so you've been one of the most

influential voices in bringing Bitcoin

to mainstream audiences both on the

individual and the corporate level. So

what's top of mind for you in 2026?

>> 2026 is a great year, a transition year

where we're seeing the large banks

embrace Bitcoin. We're launching all

these digital credit products like

Stretch to to retail investors and

retirees and corporate treasurers and

finance years and that's a great new

group of supporters for Bitcoin.

We've got probably the most supportive

set of financial regulators in the

history of the industry going into the

Fed uh at Treasury, at CFT, the SEC. So,

and and we've got the Clarity Act soon

to be passed, which is just very

enormously legitimizing for the entire

industry. So, I I'm just looking forward

to the advance and the expansion of the

industry as it integrates into the

mainstream financial world.

>> It's great to see. Yes, there's so much

going on this year. Big year. Um, so my

second question is, so you've labeled

Bitcoin as digital property. What's your

take on Bitcoin as spending money?

>> I think that what's going to happen is

we're going to use the first layer of

Bitcoin as digital capital. I think

you're going to see an explosion of

digital credit at the second layer. I

think that you're going to see digital

money or digital currency at the third

layer. And the third layer is going to

be a call it a Bitcoin backed stable

coin or it's going to be a savings coin.

It'll be like the dollar. You'll be able

to move it around as a medium exchange.

It'll be integrated into all of the

trillions of of uh products and services

that are priced in dollars and all of

the hundreds of millions of companies

that that take and spend dollars. But it

will offer a much stronger yield, you

know, more like a six, seven, eight%

yield, which which outstrips the cost of

inflation. And that'll be strong,

high-powered money built on Bitcoin.

I mean, what do you think about

merchants? Like, how would you tell them

that is a good way for them to accept

that form of payment?

>> I think that'll be in essence stable

coins. I think I think that everybody

that takes a dollar anywhere in the

world will will have that. You'll be

able to convert that into dollars and

pay for anything

>> just autocon convert. Yeah.

>> Yeah. I think what we're seeing is

digital currency is primarily going to

be the dollar. I think I think the

dollar is is spreading everywhere in the

world and it's replacing the euro, the

pound, the yen. Pretty much in Europe,

people don't want the euro, they want

the dollar. So the dollar is actually

emerging as the as the global currency.

The dollar on digital rails is is the

crypto or digital version of it. But the

big breakthrough now is the ability to

create a digital currency that's backed

by Bitcoin that offers yields that are

two, three or four times higher than uh

than currencies backed by fiat. Do you

think that as this happens and Bitcoin

just becomes so much more normal and

even as people as they they buy Bitcoin

in the form of equity, do you think a

lot of these investors or people are

coming into it will still understand

what the Bitcoin ethos are and like what

it came to be or that'll just become

more top of or kind of not top of mind.

I think that there'll be a group uh the

people that the companies and the

individuals and the large holders and

the and the advocates

and the developers will continue to

carry forward the Bitcoin ideology

and of course any technician will

understand the Bitcoin technology.

But I think we're headed toward a world

where there's a billion people they just

want a bank account that pays them 8%.

you know, it's like six-year-old girl,

75 year old retiree. What they're going

to know is that digital money is powered

by Bitcoin and they'll they kind of like

your electricity came from a nuclear

reactor

and you don't really know how to create

a nuclear reactor or you don't know how

tricky it is, but you know, it's like

really good cheap electricity. And so I

really think that as as Bitcoin spreads,

what you're going to have is a group of

people that understand very intricately

the technology. But the great masses of

people, it's like they don't want to

know how the plane works. They don't

want to know how the car works. They

don't want to know where the electricity

comes from. They don't want to know how

their food was prepared. Like most

people don't know, you know, how you

create a Coca-Cola beverage or or you

know, how do you create these things?

Nobody knows how to make an iPhone. All

they know is that they've got this

insanely good product that solves the

problems in their life and it's based

upon superior technology.

>> I totally agree with you that um as long

as people know that they don't need to

get into the weeds and some of us here

in Prescidio Bitcoin always know but yes

um okay I think both of us feel

optimistic about Bitcoin's future but

maybe let's think of a different type of

future a grim one and Bitcoin has

failed.

Why do you think that it failed?

>> Bitcoin's not going to fail. It's gonna

succeed because Bitcoin represents

economic empowerment to everybody on the

planet. Bitcoin represents a protocol

for economic prosperity.

It's kind of like we're speaking

English. And you're saying, well, what

if people stop speaking English or just

stop speaking? What if people stop

speaking to each other? I don't think

they're going to stop speaking to each

other. if uh if you had Arabic math or

you had math, what if people stop using

math? I I think they'll keep using math.

I think they'll keep using anguish. I

think they'll keep using Bitcoin because

uh people need math uh to create

machines that work and and to engage in

commerce and they need uh language to

coordinate with each other and they need

Bitcoin if they're going to engage in

rational economic transactions

so it won't fail.

love strong optimism and I agree. Okay,

I have some fun questions for you. Okay,

>> so I know you went to MIT.

>> Yeah,

>> my dad did too. So I've heard about kind

of some of the famous like clever hacks

and pranks that have happened at MIT. Do

you have any stories that you like to

tell?

>> Uh let's see. Once uh once our

fraternity we hijacked an elevator and

then we set it up uh and with the office

of the dean and we put all the furniture

of the dean into the elevator and then

we locked it off so that uh you had to

have a special code in order to get the

elevator and uh in order to create the

hack we actually rigged the entire thing

with its own chandelier and we lit up

the chandelier. Oh my gosh.

>> At some point the elevator opens and

it's like this uh this uh strange guy

sitting at a desk with a chandelier

talking.

>> That's a good one. That's a good one.

>> Okay, another question. So, I saw that

you you did play the guitar. Do you

still play the guitar? If so, what do

you like to play?

>> I used to play in in uh high school and

college. Uh sometimes I play for myself.

Mostly Beatles tunes.

>> Oo, Beatles tunes. Okay, that's a good

one. Okay, one more fun question for

you. So, your self-portrait images on

Twitter have become iconic. What to AI

tools, if any, are you using to generate

these images?

>> A whole mixture of them. Some of them

came from MidJourney. Some of them come

from Brock. Uh, some of them I don't

generate at all. Other people generate

them for me and they use all sorts of

other tools. So a lot of times most of

them actually I didn't generate. So if

you look at them you'll see I tagged the

people the artist that does generate

them. You know the the most prolific

Atlas Hodal

Leoer

etc. Janice you'll you'll see they've

done really good ones and and they use a

variety of tools.

>> Use a variety of tools. Okay. Are there

uh anything that you've learned from

playing around with AI tools? Have you

been vibe coding anything fun?

Um, in fact, uh, all of the digital

credit instruments we created, we did

eight billion dollars of issuance of

digital credit last year approximately,

they were all created with AI. And so,

Stretch, which is which is the premier

digital credit that I think we'll use to

create all sorts of digital money and

and digital currency type instruments,

that was that would not exist without

AI. Uh so we use AI a lot in designing

securities and capital market

strategies. Uh you know I use AI

sometimes if I'm going to say something

and I have it edit my syntax and check

and make sure that I I spelled

everything correctly.

Sometimes I'll take an image and I'll

post it in the AI and say I think I want

to say this but do you agree? And it'll

it'll tell me well you could say it

better this way. If you said it this way

it's more like Michael Sailor. So the AI

will actually correct me and tell me how

Michael Sailor would really say the

thing.

>> That's what

>> which I find to be amusing.

>> Is it right? Usually.

>> Yeah. Oftentimes it's actually right. It

actually tells me how to be me better

than I would be me.

>> It's a crazy world that's happening.

>> It sure is. Well,

>> that's awesome that strategy is thinking

a lot about like using AI tools. Um,

very cool to hear. Uh, I'd love to hear

your thoughts if you're thinking much

about generally like the intersection of

Bitcoin and AI and how you think that

can maybe play out in a positive way.

>> Yeah. Well, I I think number one, AI is

going to radically transform every

product and service and every role, you

know, in our civilization. And, you

know, one of the more negatives is it's

demonetizing human capital. It's like if

your company had 15,000 trained

professionals, it's more challenging

because it's possible the AI might start

to automate out 8,000 of those jobs. But

on the other hand, as it demonetizes

human capital, it accelerates the

transition of of of capital to digital

capital. So it's monetizing digital

capital, and that's what Bitcoin is. So

So broadly speaking, as as you see this

develop, uh it's driving a lot of wealth

into digital capital. I think that's

positive. I think there are a lot of

interesting applications of AI. Um, you

know, in theory, you can uh create an AI

that's transnational. You can capitalize

it with Bitcoin. You can release it to

the universe and it can become

autonomous. And you couldn't capitalize

uh you couldn't capitalize um an AI with

fiat currency or or any kind of

conventional security portfolio. So, so

you may see autonomous creatures or

autonomous actors that are capitalized

with Bitcoin going forward. That would

be interesting. I think it's inevitable

that the AIs will uh do things faster

and more sophisticated. So, in a world

of a billion AIs talking to a billion

AIs a billion times an hour on Saturday

night, they're going to bypass uh

conventional analog assets and they're

going to they're going to bypass

traditional financial systems and

they're going to want to move digital

assets, you know, digital currency,

digital capital around on a digital

standard. And of course the the two

things that Bitcoin offers that are just

really uh important are it offers an

uncorruptible

uh network of capital or or source of

capital. So so it is that but also it

offers an immutable uh global source of

truth and integrity. So I think the AIS

will want to use that for

authentication. I also think that if the

AIs began to imitate us uh in fishing

attacks, then the importance of

cryptographic verification will become

more important. And so authentication

and verification cryptographically

uh will will start to absorb its

authenticity or derive its authenticity

or veracity from the Bitcoin network

underlying because Bitcoin uh the

Bitcoin network and Bitcoin transactions

are the gold standard of authentication

and uh veracity. So I think in this era

uh Bitcoin and all the underlying things

it represents are going to grow more and

more important to the digital economy.

>> I totally agree and it's honestly really

cool to hear that you're thinking that

too because we're thinking a lot about

Bitcoin being spending money for these

agents. Um and maybe like there's been,

you know, Bitcoin as digital property.

were doing stuff to make plushy to make

Bitcoin more spending money in retail,

but there's maybe going to be this new

wave where Bitcoin is spending money for

agents.

>> Yes. Uh there's no telling what they'll

do, but what they but one thing we know

is they're going to want to move

money at the speed of light and they're

going to want to engage in commerce at

the speed of light. they'll want to move

a million times faster than any kind of

analog or human uh limited system would

move. And so if you want all of these

digital systems to reach their full

potential,

you need you need a digital network,

digital capital, digital currency,

digital, you know, authentication,

digital networks. And you need to do it

you need to do it natively in cyerspace.

You can't you can't have something which

is not a native cyber asset that's a

bearer instrument with final settlement.

So, Bitcoin offers final settlement as

opposed to conditional settlement,

you know, and uh so the difference

between between final settlement is the

difference between uh an energyrich

environment in cyberspace

or or just uh the shadows or silhouettes

of energy. If you want to do something

that's real and substantial, you're

going to need to move digital capital,

digital property, digital currency that

doesn't rely on a custodian in the real

world for final settlement.

>> 100%. I have one more AI question for

you. So, in this kind of world where

we're seeing this big shift into AI,

what kind of advice would you maybe give

to people as they think about different

unique ways to add value or maybe

different career paths for young people

to explore?

>> Um, I think I would allocate a lot of

time uh to learning how to use AIS. I

would probably pick a few. I would cycle

through them. I would test them. And I

think I would I would be challenging

them to do something very very useful.

Push them. If you're a musician, try to

compose a song, then try to compose an

album, right? If you're an artist, you

know, first try to compose the picture,

then the comic book, then the book, then

the television show, then the movie,

then the TV series, right? Pushing

harder and harder for us, you know? How

do we compose a credit instrument that

we can sell billions and billions of

dollars of, right? How do we control?

How do we build the best one? How do we

build the best one and make sure that

there's massive global adoption? Right?

You you have to you want to do something

with the AIS. And um you know, it's if

it almost does something,

you know, then it's not that

interesting. But if you keep pushing and

you find a way to get it to do the

thing, it's a zero to one moment. And so

right now you have to consider that

pretty much every product and service

and idea that's ever been implemented in

the history of the world you may be able

to reimplement better. And a host of

millions or tens of millions of ideas

that have never been practical to

implement are now practical.

And I think you want to be the first

person to figure out how to do something

new and useful. And the only way to be

the first person to figure out how to do

something is try to do something, right?

You know, so I I think and if you can't

do it this month, in four weeks you

might be able to do it. So we're at this

uh at this very pivotal transition point

where every few weeks something that was

not workable ever in the history of the

world all of a sudden becomes

technically practical.

Right? I I remember at at MIT 50 years

ago, 40 years ago, the AI lab, they were

trying to get speech recognition to work

and try to talk to computers, get the

computers to talk like they spent 40

years and then they spent years and

years and years and then all of a

sudden, you know, a year ago, click it

started working and we're just about,

you know, we're just about to get to the

point where not only will it work, it'll

work instantly and the person that you

talk to will will have like almost

instant awareness of everything

And uh so technology fails until it

succeeds. My advice is uh attempt to do

something that's really important to you

and just keep trying. Use every possible

tool in every possible mode and keep at

it. It's you know at some point you'll

actually make a breakthrough.

>> Yeah, it's it's crazy how quick things

are moving. Especially I feel like Jan

one happened and like all this cool

stuff is happening. Um, we've been

playing around a lot with AI um here and

on the spiral team. So, it's been it's

been really fun. Uh, okay. So, if uh you

could like have one thing or multiple

things that you would love to see

someone maybe build with AI that

utilizes Bitcoin, do you have any like

dream products or things you would like

to see someone do?

>> You know, I I think I'd love to see

Bitcoin get embedded in more things. I'd

love to see I'd love to see uh native

Bitcoin support get embedded into every

Android phone into every iPhone. I'd

love to see native Bitcoin support get

embedded into every operating system and

corporate operating systems. I'd love to

see it get embedded in every financial

application. And then I think that there

are some revolutionary ideas like what

if what if you actually created a

product that had Bitcoin embedded in it

and it used the Bitcoin to power the

product for a decade like like you know

in theory if I had a product that had a

battery that lasted 10 years that's

really cool. So Bitcoin is a financial

battery. Is there a way that you can

create a a product that's powered by

Bitcoin? Oh insurance. I'd love to see

insurance get powered by Bitcoin because

because if insurance is powered by

Bitcoin, then it would pay you five or

10 times as much money and it would cost

you 10 times less and it would last

longer.

>> That's so true.

>> So, a lot of things like that that can

be improved if you just embed Bitcoin in

them.

>> 100%. Um, okay, we got one minute left.

So, one quick last question. If you

could leave our listeners just like a

single lasting thought beyond what you

just said, what would it be?

>> You can remake the world for the better

using digital capital, digital assets,

digital intelligence, and digital

technology this decade. And every single

thing that we look around at, everything

in our lives, whether it's a financial

thing or it's an education thing or it's

a it's a logistics thing or it's a a

product or a service thing, every single

thing can be dramatically improved, made

better, made cheaper, made stronger,

made faster.

And I think uh probably this decade,

this coming 10 years, presumably this is

the decade of the greatest number of

innovations that create the greatest

amount of prosperity for the human race

of any 10 years in the history of

humanity. So if you're sitting around

thinking you missed it, you're too late.

All the things have been invented. Um

you know, you wish you had done the

iPhone or the Facebook or the whatever.

Uh you haven't missed it. You're not too

late, right? The world has handed you

all of these brilliant tools. An

18-year-old can go and they can grab any

AI and they can grab any digital asset

and they can try any idea and and uh

they'll probably find support for it

somewhere. You know, X lets you reach

millions or tens or hundreds of millions

of people. You've got digital

communication, you got digital commerce,

you got digital assets, you got digital

intelligence. It's a digital world and

it's a better world. So, I would

encourage everybody just to go out and

do something.

>> That's a fantastic ending thought. Well,

thank you so much for coming on the

show. Of course, our listeners probably

already know where to follow you, but if

there's any unique spot or things you

want to shout or just go to X,

>> you can find my handle on X saw Yo R

sailor. You know, my website's

michael.com. Go to michael.com.

everything that I know about Bitcoin.

All my links about Bitcoin are hope.com.

Bitcoin is hope. So, so go check out

hope.com or michael.com or or sailor

onx. And uh I appreciate your support.

Look forward to continuing the journey

together.

>> Me, too. Well, thank you so much. I hope

you have a wonderful day in Brazil in

this gorgeous weather.

>> It's going well so far.

>> Great. Thank you.