Michael Saylor & Simon Gerovich Fireside Chat | Bitcoin MENA 2025

Uh good afternoon everyone. It's uh it's

an honor and privilege uh to share the

stage with you Mike. It's uh first time

I think we're doing this together. Um

yes it is.

>> I hope it's uh the first of many times.

>> Um I think I wanted to to really start

and thank and acknowledge you for the

inspiration that you've had on

MetaPlanet and really on so many other

Bitcoin treasury companies out there.

Wouldn't wouldn't be possible without

your leadership.

Um, I'm reminded of a conversation that

we had uh at the beginning of the year

ahead of our shareholder meeting and you

said that our companies are cheerful

revolutionaries in the capital markets

and I think now that rings louder than

ever um particularly as we are looking

to embark on our own journey for

perpetual preferred following uh stretch

and strike uh for the Japanese market

and I think at that time you said that

traditional equities are valued based on

uh the capital that uh they hope to have

in the future uh future cash flows where

we now have an opportunity really to be

valued based on the capital that we have

uh digital capital that outperforms uh

the cost of capital and so we're on this

mission together. Um it's inspiring to

see you do all that you do in the US and

beyond and you know we hope to have an

opportunity to do the same in Japan.

>> Thank you. Thank you. Um

so Simon and I have something in common.

Um we're the two largest uh Bitcoin

treasury companies in the world. So our

company uh pursued a strategy of

accumulating digital capital. Bitcoin is

digital capital.

And um what do you do when you have

capital? You issue credit against it.

and we started issuing credit and

Simon's company has has uh accumulated

the largest amount of digital capital in

Japan and they're the largest uh digital

uh treasury company after us and they're

also now starting to issue credit

against it. So I guess um

Simon I think the most interesting thing

for the audience would be if you

describe Metaplanet but primarily

describe the balance sheet of Metaplanet

and describe the capital markets in

Japan like the credit markets in Japan.

uh what's the state of bank credit,

treasury credit, corporate credit, you

know, junk bond credit in Japan,

mortgage credit in Japan. And then uh

talk about your latest credit instrument

you just did and your plans in the

future because I think that'll be

interesting to people here. So the the

Japanese capital markets are relatively

sleepy when it comes to anything like a

a perpetual preferred. Uh yields are

incredibly low. Uh Japanese investors

virtually have have no options. Um

money market funds are finally returned

to the market recently and people are

incredibly excited about 50 basis

points. And so the opportunity we have

is really to connect the Bitcoin world

with one of the largest pools of savings

in the world. There's seven trillion

dollars of cash sitting on personal bank

accounts, bank balance sheets earning

nothing. And corporates have another

four or five trillion. And so it's a ton

of capital there that has been, I

suppose, accustomed to deflation for a

long time. It's okay to keep cash in a

bank account because next year you're

still able to buy goods and services for

the same price. But that is now

beginning to change. So Simon, I if I if

I'm a Japanese family and I put my money

in the bank, so what kind of yield do I

get?

>> Zero.

>> You get zero. Do they ever go and invest

in foreign markets like in US dollar

markets to try to get five or six% or

something? What's the thinking in Japan

about do I leave the Japanese currency

to chase after yield or do I just sit on

zero? And by the way, can I buy

corporate bonds? Are there any ETFs in

Japan, corporate bond ETFs or junk bond

ETFs or mortgagebacked ETFs that pay

more than zero? And what are those like?

>> The highest yielding products now are

effectively REITs. So you can buy those

a real estate investment trust, the

REITs. Um, if you're a sophisticated

Japanese investor through your broker,

you're able to access foreign markets.

But, you know, it's it's relatively kind

of few and far between. People just like

to invest in local companies. And the

main function of that is because the

disclosures are in Japanese and so

>> so culturally and then they're probably

afraid to take currency risk too, right?

Because that could really hurt you.

>> Yeah, I think there's definitely an

element of that and so there is an

opportunity really for us to to

transform that market uh to offer

something which is different to what

>> so does that mean that a a typical

retail investor or a treasurer in a

corporation in Japan is pretty much

settled for zero

Yes, zero. Yes, they're accustomed to

zero. I think they're now desperately

looking for yield and so being able to

offer an instrument that pays them 10

times better than the money market rate

is something that will definitely

aggressive very well.

>> Tell us what you're planning and what

you're thinking.

>> Sure. And so we we announced uh a couple

of weeks ago um our version of Strike,

which we're calling Mercury. Um, it's a

perpetual preferred. Um, it pays 4.9% in

yen and has convertability uh into

equity. Um, we think right now it's

probably one of the cheapest call

options on Bitcoin out there. And in the

meantime, you get paid um, you know, a

nice 4.9%. Uh, which may not seem as

attractive in in the global context. Um,

but when you're competing against, you

know, bank deposits in Japan that are

earning nothing or money market funds

that are paying 50 basis points, this is

10 times higher than that and also has

the convertability into equity. Um, I

think the real product market fit uh is

stretch and I wish um Mike you had

launched that only a month earlier

because then we would we would have done

a shelf registration for that sooner.

Um, we have a shareholder meeting coming

up uh at the end of this month and

that's when we will be um doing a shelf

for our version of Stretch.

>> And what are you going to call it?

>> Uh, we're calling it Mars, the MetPanet

adjustable rate securities.

>> So, I I wish I had the name Mars. I

think that's really cool.

Micro Strategy Adjustable Rate Security.

So if I had done it earlier but not

changed the name, we could have stolen

Mars. But probably it's better that you

have Mars.

>> We are leaning into the planetary theme.

So there quite a few other planets that

you could uh take first.

>> Our ambition will stretch all the way to

Mars.

>> Indeed.

>> Okay. So, so tell us about the preferred

stock market in uh Japan and the

regulatory issues and how deep is it or

not deep and what you're thinking and

what you've learned along the way.

>> If if I share too much with you here,

are you going to try to do the same in

Japan?

>> No.

>> You've heard it here.

>> Not not in the next 12 months. I'll give

you a 12-month head start. Well, I I I

certainly think that if if we do the

hard work of u educating the regulator

and get our preferreds launched, it will

be easier for you to to come to the

market. Um hopefully you can welcome us

to the US at some point as well. Um

>> absolutely.

>> Um so currently there are only four

listed preps in Japan. Incredibly sleepy

market. Um it's a it's a massive capital

market. And why is there only four

listed preps is a is a big surprise. Um,

there has been one other company, ANA,

the airline, um, that has announced

their own prep. Um, they'll be the

fifth, but our goal is to be the sixth

and the seventh with Mercury and Mars.

It's, uh, it's an incredibly exciting

time really for us to be that bridge uh,

between all that cash sitting there and

the Bitcoin market. Uh, I'm, you know,

we have we have shareholder meetings

that we convene probably more regularly

than we we otherwise would. We we really

want our shareholders to buy into, you

know, to the pivot that we made from

last year. We've had five shareholder

meetings since April. And each of our

shareholder meetings are literally like

rock concerts. There are three 4,000

people in attendance. And you know, a

typical Japanese shareholder meeting, no

one attends. It's what we call a Kabuki

theater. U you know, the there's five or

six people that show up. No questions

are asked. Management doesn't want to

answer any questions. And before you

know it, all the resolutions have

passed. But we really want to embrace

the fact that we're onboarding

Bitcoiners into Japan. We now have

212,000 unique Japanese individual

shareholders. And these are people that

didn't know about Bitcoin before they

discovered MetaPlanet. And so we feel we

have this really important goal um a

higher calling um to to bring uh the

love of Bitcoin to to Japan.

And again, it's uh it's thanks to you,

Mike, for all that you've done. It makes

it very easy for us in Japan to be able

to point to strategy and say this is

what a large successful company in the

US has managed to do in the US and you

know Japan wants to be an American ally

and and do the same in Japan.

>> You know a funny aside before we

discovered Bitcoin uh we had a

shareholder meeting and we had one

shareholder show up.

one,

you know, so if you're wondering how far

we've all come, um, what the big

innovation of digital credit is, uh,

putting together, you know, a number of

innovations. The first innovation is use

digital capital, Bitcoin, to back it.

The second innovation is you put it in a

preferred equity instrument that's

perpetual. The third is you take it

public.

And the fourth is you put a shelf

registration on it so you can

continuously sell it. And if you do all

four of those things, then you've

created this uh perpetual liquid digital

credit instrument that is uh two to four

times better than traditional credit and

you can sell it without the credit risk.

in the US. Um, we've got pretty

welldefined uh regulatory paths that do

shelf registrations.

Our our company, by the way, we we were

writing in the preferred and there were

already thousands of preferred stocks

because banks issue preferred and so

there was a much bigger preferred stock

market when we launched.

Um although the reputation industry was

very sleepy and they were like stodgy

and I don't think anybody had ever put

it was almost never heard of that you

put a shelf registration on a preferred

stock. So we were combining an equity

idea with a preferred equity idea. And

um

as I've gone to other parts of the

world, I've noticed there are some

regulators where they'll say you can

sell the preferred stock, but you can't

implement the shelf registration until a

year or two years after the preferred is

trading. And that would the

adjustable rate security. So it's very

tricky. I'm you've come up with pretty

creative ways to actually implement uh

continuous selling in Japan. You want to

describe how you do that and uh and how

you think about it and then also what is

your time frame to launch Mars? I think

that's interesting.

Um, and so we were looking for a way to

execute an ATM in Japan after strategy

was doing that successfully in the US.

And we sadly discovered that there was

no ATM structure in Japan. And so we

came across a fundraising mechanism that

a lot of small and medium-sized

companies in Japan avail, which is

effectively a moving strike warrant. U,

and so that's how we've uh raised most

of our equity kind of so far over the

past 18 months. Um, and that is

something that you can theoretically do

on a prep as well. And so we would be

looking to do a moving strike warrant on

our perpetual preferred. Um, we just did

uh we just announced a preIPO of our

version uh of strike. So our Mercury um

we've we've now issued. Uh the goal is

to get that listed in Japan early next

year. Um I'd like to give you an exact

date but as you know with the regulator

there are a lot of steps that that one

needs to jump through. Um but I feel

quite confident that you know we can

tick all those boxes and get the

instrument um listed in in due course. U

as I said the best product market fit is

Mars. Um that's something that we'd like

to do kind of closely thereafter. Um, it

is something that I think the Japanese

market would really really like having a

you know high yield bank account,

something they can they can purchase in

their securities account um and have

something that has a stable price um

that pays a yield that is far higher

than they're used to seeing.

So um

ultimately

the appeal is if you can put together

digital capital with a preferred

make it publicly traded. Find a way to

feed liquidity in the market. adjust the

dividend rate variably

and then manage the shelf registration

to provide liquidity but trim the

volatility. If you put all those things

together, you can create this magical

digital credit instrument. Mars would be

the third. You know, uh Strive created

SATA the second and Stretch was the

first.

I you know my impression is you know

there will be over time a dozen or a few

dozen treasury companies that'll create

this kind of credit and it'll be good

for the market because um the more

people offering it the more enthusiastic

the credit investors will be. How are

you going to market your credit

instruments in Japan? And do you have

any thoughts about where you issue

credit instruments in the US or anywhere

else? What's your what's your idea

there?

>> I think the Japanese market is, you

know, it's one of the largest markets in

the world. Um we we would like to be,

you know, the player in the Japanese

capital market. That's our primary

focus. um at this point. Um maybe there

is a an opportunity for us to expand um

in Asia, but I do and maybe this is an

unpopular opinion, but I I don't think

there is a need for that many Bitcoin

treasury companies and that many issuers

of of digital credit. The most important

thing is having a substantial balance

sheet of Bitcoin. And you know, you now

have more than 3% of the global supply.

Um our goal is to get to 1%. um still,

you know, quite the way to go from here.

Um but we've said we want to get to

210,000 by by 2027. Um you know, it is

it is an important thing that we're all

doing here. It's uh

so your focus is going to be to provide

digital credit in JPY in yen.

>> That's correct.

>> And dominate that market. And if we ever

want to provide bank accounts that pay

6% or 5% or 7% in yen, you're going to

need that digital credit instrument to

do it.

And uh and that prim. It's like

marketing, working with regulators,

building the capital base, getting the

instrument, getting the instrument

listed on the exchange, getting it

liquid, and that you have to be laserike

focused on that. Yeah. Which I I

applaud. So, I asked you a lot of

questions, Simon. Do you have any

questions for me?

>> So, I um I'm one of your followers on

your ex account, and I see over the past

three, four days, you somehow have

managed to be in pretty much every

country in the region taking a nice

selfie with a a beautiful backdrop. Um

can you share with us a bit about who

you're meeting, the types of

conversations you're you're having?

>> [clears throat]

>> Um,

you know, I think that this entire

region is much more pro- digital assets

and pro- digital transformation

uh

than uh most other parts of the world.

Uh the two things about the Middle East

that stick out

uh they like technology

and they like money.

And so if you if you believe in digital

transformation and digital technology

and if you're interested in money then

the digital transformation of money and

the and digital transformation of

capital markets and equity and digital

banking ought to be very interesting. So

I've been meeting with um I've been

obviously meeting with all the sovereign

wealth funds. I've been meeting with,

I don't know, 50, a hundred different

investors, hedge funds, family office

investors that are interested. I've been

meeting with uh banks and people that

own banks or run banks. I've been

meeting with uh fund managers that offer

financial products. I've been meeting

with regulators

in every jurisdiction

and I think um and my message by the way

is uh is very very straightforward.

My message is we now have digital

capital. Bitcoin is digital capital is

digital gold.

On top of digital capital we have a new

asset class called digital credit.

Digital credit strips the volatility

from the capital and provides uh yield

income.

So the simple idea is if you have a

5-year-old kid, you can give them a

million dollar worth of land in

Manhattan, that's capital, and tell them

wait 30 years and then maybe they'll be

rich, but there no cash flows. or you

can give them a credit instrument that

pays them $10,000 a month forever

starting now.

And so most people want the credit

instrument. They don't want the capital

instrument. Even if the capital

appreciates at 30% a year, and even if

the credit only pays 10%. That's okay.

They'd rather have 10% nonvolatile than

30% volatile with no cash flows. A

treasury company like ours, like

MetaPlanet, like strategy exists to

convert capital into credit.

Once you have understand that, then you

have three ideas big, bigger, and

biggest. The big idea is you take your

sovereign wealth or your wealth and you

buy digital capital. If you don't trust

anybody,

you buy digital credit. If you think

Bitcoin is a real thing, but it's too

volatile for you, you're just going to

get two to four times as much as

traditional credit.

And then you get the you get the first

10% of the return risk-free just by the

credit. And then if you believe in the

idea of digital credit and you want

amplified Bitcoin and amplified

exposure, you buy the treasury company,

you buy the meta planet, you buy the

strategy, you buy the equity, and you

strap on for the rocket ride. It's going

to be very volatile and you're going for

the next trillion dollar stock. And so

if you want that, you buy the equity.

Otherwise, you buy the capital or you

buy the credit. So that's

the big idea.

The bigger idea, you're like there's a

bigger idea which is you have a bank and

so have have the big Emirates Bank,

First Bank of Abu Dhabi, Bank of

Bahrain, you know, the Kuwait bank. Have

the bank custody Bitcoin custody.

Everybody talks about self-custody.

Self-custody for the bank in the

country. buy Bitcoin, have your bank

custody of the Bitcoin, and then start

to offer credit networks on top of the

Bitcoin. And if your bank offers people

sofur plus 50 basis point loans on

Bitcoin,

then there are $2 trillion of digital

capital going to 20 trillion and you

will attract five or 10% of it and you

can attract a trillion dollars or a few

trillion dollars to your bank in your

country because right now most big

conventional regulated banks don't

handle Bitcoin. and they don't extend

credit on it. So, integrate digital

capital into your banking system. That's

the bigger idea because then you're

going to have big Bitcoin holders wire

27 billion of Bitcoin to your bank over

overnight.

They're all going to come to you.

[clears throat] And then I end with the

biggest idea.

The biggest idea

instead of getting 10% of $2 trillion,

why don't you look at the traditional

credit market which is $200 trillion.

Look at bank credit in Japan that gives

nothing. Look at credit in Europe gives

nothing. Look at uh Swiss credit gives

nothing. Look at the money markets in

the euro that pay 150 basis points or

the money markets in the US that pay 400

basis points or the corporate bond

market which wouldn't exist if people

weren't so disgusted with their bank

account. The only reason you buy a

corporate bond or a junk bond or private

credit or mortgage back security is

because your bank account doesn't pay

you 6% or 8%.

And so the biggest idea is create

highpowered digital money. You might

have heard that phrase high-powered

digital money. It was used by Satoshi.

He said the future is corporations

holding Bitcoin to create high powered

digital money.

The way to create high power digital

money is take digital credit. whether

it's Mars or SATA or Stretch

and create a fund which is 80% credit

20% currency. Lay a 10% reserve buffer

on top. Strip away all the volatility.

Take it to V of zero and offer someone.

You don't have to offer them 10%

dividend and stretch. Offer them 8%

dividend in a bank account.

do it with a regulated bank endorsed by

the bank regulator.

And now I just wire my money to the bank

of whatever, the bank of of Dubai, the

Bank of Abu Dhabi, the Bank of Bahrain,

the Bank of Kuwait.

I wire you my billions of dollars or

tens of billions of dollars and you pay

me 8% interest every day. zero volt in a

regulated bank powered by dig digital

credit which is in turn powered by a

treasury company with 5x as much digital

capital over collateralized.

So if you offer digital bank accounts

and digital money accounts

then you could presumably attract $20

trillion or $50 trillion. Why wouldn't

everybody with all the money in Europe

or Africa or South America or Asia or

Japan or Australia or Canada or the US

just send all their money to your

country and your nation will be the

digital banking capital of the world.

Your bank will be the biggest bank in

the world. Your customers will be

delighted and you can decide if you want

to keep 50 basis points or 100 basis

points or 200 basis points.

You can even adjust the risk and the and

the yield and the liquidity by

increasing the currency from 20 to 30 or

40 or you can play with the buffer.

But you know, if the banks in Japan are

offering zero and you have the and you

offer 400 basis points

and if the banks in Europe offer zero

and you offer 500 basis points in euros

and if the banks in the US offer they're

going to be offering 300 basis points in

a money market or 200

offer 100 two 300 basis points more and

what I would say is what is the perfect

product. It's not the iPhone you need.

You need to be awake and be able to see

and hold the iPhone. The perfect product

is a bank account with zero volatility

that pays you 400 basis points more than

the risk-free rate in your favorite

currency.

And if you're a financial engineer,

the sharp ratio is the return minus the

risk-free return divided by the

volatility. And when the volatility goes

to zero, the sharp ratio goes to

infinity.

If you want the lightsaber of money, the

laser beam of money, the the nuclear

fusion reactor of money, it's going to

be a digital bank account.

And the innovation's going to be digital

capital, digital credit,

a digital fund plugged into a digital

account. blessed by a regulator.

I I don't have a country. It's above my

pay grade. I don't have a bank.

But you have a bank.

The people I'm talking to have banks and

they have countries and they have

regulations.

So, I'm not saying they're going to do

it. It's really a freeforall. The

question is who's going to be the who

wants to be the Switzerland of the 21st

century and attract all the money in the

world? And the answer is going to be

whoever appreciates money the most,

wants the money the most, that

understands technology the best, that is

willing to to take a a courageous stance

of conviction with a degree of clarity.

that is the opportunity and uh and and

that's all all the conversations have

been extraordinarily

uh energetic, enthusiastic and I

couldn't be more excited. I think it

will happen somewhere in this region.

We'll see where

well it's it's wonderful to be front row

of innovation as we see a transformation

in the capital markets. Um, I think our

time may be up, but it's uh it's been a

pleasure sitting alongside with you and

look forward to doing a lot more

together.

>> I'm I'm delighted to be on the journey

with with MetaPlanet,

with Strive, with all of the Bitcoiners

and all the Bitcoin treasury companies

and everybody that supports the space,

everybody buying our stock, everybody

shorting our stock, everybody buying the

credit, everybody arbitrageing the

credit. We love you all. Uh, thank you

for your interest.

>> Thank you very much.

>> Heat. Heat.

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