Michael Saylor: 100x Return Strategy, Bitcoin vs Macro Panic & the BTC Corporate Treasury Revolution

You have to think in the year 2045 I

think a bitcoin is worth $13 million. So

every bitcoin that you don't buy is a

$13 million cost. That Ferrari that

you're going to buy is going to cost you

like six bitcoin. And so it's going to

be a $100 million Ferrari, right? Uh if

you look out 20 years.

[Music]

Michael, thank you so much for joining

me again. Fantastic conference, isn't

it? Yeah. It seems like we're entering

the era of corporate Bitcoin treasury.

So, let's just start there. I feel like

more of the lesserk known or zombie

companies are the ones really taking

action. And you said that it's the

companies that are on a need to know

basis that are really embracing Bitcoin.

Some of the biggest names are going to

come in last. Can you explain that?

Well, you know, we've got halves and

have nots. CNBC talks about a 100

tickers a day, but there's 100 100 stock

tickers total, and they make up 80% of

the trading volume. There's 12,000

public companies in the US. There's four

or 5,000 on NASDAQ, a New York Stock

Exchange. Most of them uh the market has

lost interest in and they're competing

against a Google or against Amazon or

against a Microsoft or against an Apple.

So, if you're one of those midsize small

companies and you're staring at these

trillion dollar, you know, digital

giants and no one cares about you, then

at some point after after doing

struggling like that for month after

month, year after year, you start

thinking it's kind of hopeless. And so

the explosion interest in Bitcoin

treasury strategies I think comes

because people are realizing companies

are realizing that there's a there's

hope for them. There's an opportunity

and it is by plugging into the next

great digital transformation, right? the

the way that you actually get back on

top, the way you start re-energizing a

company and growing it is by digitally

transforming your balance sheet. And the

companies who have done it uh earliest

are having extraordinary success,

companies like strategy, companies like

Meta Planet. And so as more and more

companies embrace the Bitcoin

standard and as their stocks start to

perform and as their investors start to

see success uh the idea is spreading

because you know there no one takes a

company public wanting to be an also ran

ran or be roadkill for Amazon.

Why do so many companies resort to

things like stock buybacks or acquiring

other companies when they're deploying

capital? Why not buy Bitcoin? The

conventional corporate finance playbook

is uh cash is trash and cash

underperforms the S&P index. And so the

S&P index is the cost of capital and if

you've got excess cash flow then you

need to return it to the investors so

they can invest it and get a and get

that cost of capital or get the S&P

return. Um and you either do it with a

buyback or you do it with a dividend. Um

I think the the primary reason the

market concluded that is because for a

hundred years the treasury reserve asset

of every public company was shortdated

treasury bills and they never had

another treasury asset. Your choices

would be treasury bills, gold or

bitcoin. Gold was the reserve asset of

the 19th century.

corporate a sovereign debt like 30-day

tea bills is the treasury asset, the

reserve asset of the 20th century and

Bitcoin is a reserve asset emerging in

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seems like a lot has been happening with

the sovereign debts and with the bond

market that people weren't expecting. We

have a lot of macro headwinds that even

Bitcoin I think is facing. I'm sure the

audience would benefit just from your

macro perspective. We have these global

war um threats and tensions, the trade

war. What do you think about that and

how should people look at Bitcoin and

and how should investors really analyze

these concerns? Well, um all of these uh

all of these actions are creating

uncertainty in the market, right? Trade

uncertainty, operational uncertainty. um

how do I organize my supply chain? What

products should I stock on my shelves?

What products should I buy? How long

will it take? What services do I need?

Where do I source the services? That

uncertainty creates massive

inefficiency. It creates

dislocation. Investors are discounting

the future cash flows for the next 10

years of a given business. And so if

it's uncertain whether the business will

exist and in what form and how profit

it'll be then they they tend to shoot

first ask questions later or in this

case sell first ask questions later. Um

their view would be let's just back away

from the market until it becomes less

uncertain. That's that's what is driving

the macroeconomic headwind right now. Um

whenever you whenever a company runs

into a difficult time like that whether

it's co

or whether it's the current, you know,

tariff

wars, it behooves the company to be

extremely well capitalized. What you

would like is to have a a company that

has a deep deep pool of liquid assets

you can rely upon even if your core

business revenues get zeroed out. If you

don't have that, you're going to go

bankrupt in a prolonged crisis.

Um, here in lies the the the solution,

the promise of Bitcoin and the problem

with traditional corporate

finance. Traditional corporate finance

teaches these companies to

decapize. So, they've all been

decapitalizing. They've been

surrendering their capital via buybacks

and dividends. when they're not well

capitalized and they run into economic

uncertainty in their operating

business that creates extreme anxiety

for the employees, the executives, the

customers and the

investors. Um the promise of Bitcoin and

the Bitcoin standard is that every

company can be well capitalized. Uh

because if you simply start sweeping

your cash flows into Bitcoin or you

convert your dividend into a Bitcoin buy

or if you convert your buyback of stock

into a buyback of Bitcoin, then your

enterprise value over time would double

and uh your your organization would be

valued partially on future

expectations but partially on the assets

you own. And so you can imagine when 95%

of the value is future expectations,

when they become uncertain, 95% of the

value becomes uncertain. But when half

the value of a company is is based upon

the assets they own, right? Then they

have a built-in insurance policy or a

shock absorber and they have the luxury

of being able to sit back and see how

things work out but without being

desperate or taking short-term

actions. And Bitcoin offers one more

collateral advantage, which is the more

uncertain the operating world gets, the

more valuable Bitcoin becomes and the

more compelling the idea is because

there are no tariffs on Bitcoin. Bitcoin

doesn't have supply chains. It doesn't

have all of the regulatory risk, the tax

risk, the operating, the execution risk

that you have uh when you have a

business based upon providing products

and services in a particular way. You've

said that if you want to 10x your money,

buy Bitcoin. If you want to 100x your

money, buy Bitcoin with someone else's

money. And if you want to 1,000x your

money, then buy Bitcoin with someone

else's money and lever it. But for the

average person watching who's probably a

wage earner and not a business leader,

what do you think is the best way to

100x your money, can you still do it

with Bitcoin? And what types of

strategies can be deployed? Um I think

uh the best way to get superior returns,

100x type returns if you're an

individual would be you adopt you keep

your day job and so you you maximize the

cash flow you generate via whatever your

profession is. You're responsible on

your on your um expenditures. You have

to think in the year 2045 I think a

bitcoin is worth $13 million. So every

bitcoin that you don't buy is a $13

million cost. That Ferrari that you're

going to buy is going to cost you like

six Bitcoin. And so it's going to be a

$100 million Ferrari, right? Uh if you

look out 20 years. So you have to keep

your

job. You know, unless you're insanely

rich, don't splurge on the Ferrari. Buy

the buy the six Bitcoin instead.

And with regard to uh leverage, the

intelligent leverage for the individual

is generally longdated, mid-dated uh

mortgage debt. So if I have any kind of

property, you know, if I have a house, I

would put a long mortgage on it, a

10-year mortgage or 15, a 20-year

mortgage on it, especially a conforming

loan. And then I would roll it into

Bitcoin because mortgage debt is not

markettomarket. It's against uh it's

against an asset which is fairly stable.

Normally the interest rates are somewhat

subsidized by a Fanny May or Freddy Mack

program or a government program. So it's

it's the cheapest form of permanent

capital that someone can get. So you

know I I give you what you shouldn't do.

You shouldn't quit your job. You

shouldn't splurge on sports cars you

can't afford. Don't buy a yacht because

it's it's obscenely expensive. And don't

pay off your mortgage. Yes. Don't don't

get debtree. Uh any any capital you have

that's not that's not mark to market to

capital uh would be better invested in

an asset that's going up 30% a year for

the next 20 years. I've met so many

people at this conference who have

created tremendous wealth just from

buying MSTR. How does that make you

feel? You've changed lives. I mean,

people have expanded their families.

They've retired early. That must feel

good. Yeah. It's it's gratifying when

you can help people. And so, probably

there's no there's no greater uh

compliment than someone says like, "You

help me financially to be secure in the

future, hopes, and aspirations for my

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speed.app. Can you share more about the

new products that you've released,

Strife and Strike?

Yes. Uh yeah. The exciting thing about

them is uh Strife is is a preferred

stock that we built on top of Bitcoin.

It's about 5x overcolateralized right

now. So it's a it's a very over

collateralized preferred stock that pays

a 10% dividend at par at 100. So if you

buy it, you collect a dead 10% dividend

forever. It's perpetual. There's no call

option. So you could literally hold it

for 30, 40, 50 years. And um a and uh

that's for people that maybe they want

to put it in their retirement account or

they want uh they want high quality

income. Strike is for people that would

like upside uh but they don't like the

volatility of Bitcoin and they would

like some kind of principal protection.

So Strike pays an 8% coupon. So you do

get uh you do get a dividend yield uh at

8% par and it has a conversion rate that

works out to be about 35 to 40% of the

upside of uh the common equity. So it's

it's like you know you're trying to get

80 to 100% of the performance of Bitcoin

with downside

protection with a living stipend right

with a with a guaranteed dividend. So,

we created those two different

securities for people that that have

different risk return profiles. And uh

you know, when you pair them with the

equity, what it means is if you if you

want to outperform Bitcoin and you're

and you're all about performance and you

want volatility, then you would buy

MSTR, the common equity. If you want

something that's got guard rails, you

know, a bit of a stipen built into it

and a downside uh protection element,

you buy Strike. And if you just want

pure fixed income and the most you can

get, you would buy Strife. Seems like

there's a lot of innovative financial

instruments in the pipeline blended with

Bitcoin or backed by Bitcoin. Um I know

that you've heard of obviously bit

bonds. Is that something you think our

country could embrace, releasing bonds

that are backed by Bitcoin? Yeah. I

think it's a very novel idea and it

would be great for the nation and I

think it'd be great for the bond buyers

too. So like a lot of novel instruments

it takes leadership right uh from the

executives it'll take leadership in the

treasury and then it'll take an investor

education campaign but it is a great

solution. I think the great thing about

Bitcoin is uh Bitcoin is it's been like

a you know the highest performing

commodity asset in the world. So the the

highest uh the greatest source of

financial energy in the world and that

means that you can construct a great a

great bond a great uh fixed income

preferred a great convertible instrument

a great equity instrument a great

lowrisk you know investment grade

instrument you can sweeten an insurance

portfolio you can improve the

performance of a diversified stock

portfolio there are a lot of things you

can do uh in order to improve uh the

outcomes of any financial action uh I

almost look up look at it like it's like

the sucralose of finance like the

universal sweetener super high

performance and so uh there's a world of

opportunity in the financial

uh marketplaces if you incorporate the

appropriate dose of Bitcoin volatility

and Bitcoin performance into whatever

instrument strument you're trying to

create. Are you surprised the US hasn't

yet bought Bitcoin?

Um, I'm not surprised. I think I was

surprised that the US has embraced

Bitcoin as radically as it has over the

last 6 months. I think I think I didn't

expect nearly all the cabinet members to

be so enthusiastic or the section of the

Treasury. I didn't expect the strategic

Bitcoin reserve, you know, to be put in

place so quickly. I didn't expect the

cryptos are to declare that bitcoin is

you know the one you know global digital

commodity in the world and is digital

gold. I didn't expect the president of

the United States to say never sell your

bitcoin. So those I didn't expect. I

generally expect that large governments

will move in a in a plotting some

somewhat methodic not always rational

fashion because there are just so many

interests involved. And so my

expectations are moderated in that

regard. I think most of the aggressive

action will come from small midsize

businesses because they have the most to

gain, the least to lose, and they can

move the quickest. But when the rhetoric

has changed from the White House and we

have the strategic Bitcoin reserve and

all these tailwinds, why I mean you're

buying pretty much every Monday. Why

isn't the price at 150 or 200k?

I think we're going through a rotation

right now where, you know, lots of

noneconomically interested parties are

rotating out of the asset and then a new

uh a new cohort of investors are

entering. Uh, a lot of Bitcoin was for

whatever reason left in the hands of

governments, in the hands of lawyers, in

the hands of bankruptcy

trustees, like the FTX bankruptcy, and

they kind of had to hold it for a year

or two years as they're working through

their process. And then when they saw

this massive market rally, I think a lot

of those trustees, they don't have a

10-year investors mindset. They just

thought, well, this is a good exit point

to get liquidity. So, so I think people

less less committed to the long term

have been taking this opportunity to

exit the market and I think a whole new

uh a whole new class of investors are

entering by way of the ETFs and by way

of the Bitcoin treasury companies. One

of the things I enjoy most about talking

to you or listening to you is the whole

market could be in total panic, fear,

anxiety about maybe the macro factors

and you always have this sense of calm

about you that things will get resolved.

So you're clearly not worried about

things that are happening will

eventually resolve these global

tensions, the tariffs, and we'll it'll

be smooth sailing for Bitcoin

eventually. That's that's the read I

get. Um, every single crisis uh recruits

a new class of Bitcoin believers.

um there's just a delay between the

crisis and and the Bitcoin rally. So,

for example, in March, uh Bitcoin

crashed with everything else down to

like 4,000 or

4,500 and I started buying it in the

9,000s or the 10,000s. And I remember

when Bitcoin was 10,000 and the NASDAQ

was like 12,000 and um you know then

Bitcoin would rally up and rage and and

then there would be a crypto crash and

it came down and uh and on the other

hand here we are today and Bitcoin is

like 96 or 97,000 the NASDAQ 17,000 and

now we're in a big tariff crisis and the

near-term reaction is always the market

cramps and everybody sells everything.

But the long-term reaction is, you know,

if I had all my money invested in

Bitcoin instead of invested in that

company, I wouldn't have been affected

by tariffs. And so what you have is a

reallocation of portfolios to being more

Bitcoin less the other thing. If I, you

know, people are thinking now, if I had

more Bitcoin, less gold, I would have

made a lot more money in the last four

years. If I had had more Bitcoin, less

big tech, I would have made a lot more

money. If I had more Bitcoin and less

that bond instrument, I would have done

better. So, these are teaching moments,

right? And

and in in any macro panic, the most

liquid leverable asset is

Bitcoin. Bitcoin is the only thing that

you can sell. You can sell it short with

50x leverage on Saturday morning. It's

the only thing that you can short 50x on

Saturday morning. So when people panic

on a weekend or an evening, it's going

to be volatile. And if someone wants to

sell some financial asset because of

some gloom and doom thing that's

happened, they're going to go to Bitcoin

first because it's the only thing they

can trade. And then not just trade in

the US, trade globally, worldwide. And

so it is volatile because it is useful

and it will be in times of panic and

contraction. It will correlate for a

short moment with other assets but then

it will bounce back a and it will break

uh it'll break that correlation decouple

and it'll uh rally higher and that has

happened you know consistently for the

past 15 years and it's it's happening

right now as we watch it. So, so I'm I'm

calm in these times because I think

we're just going to we're going to win

over a new set of Bitcoin believers and

a new set of people that thought they

had the perfect business are going to

realize that no investment in real

estate and private equity and public

equity or in a currency derivative is a

risk-free investment. And when we say

look, Bitcoin is not a currency

derivative. It is not a company. It is

not real estate. It doesn't have a

supply chain. It has no employees. It

has no nexus. It is not, you know,

subject to that counterparty risk. Now,

there'll be a new uh a a new class of

investors that will understand what it

means to be exposed to those risks and

they'll be like, "Oh, oh, you mean like

no tariffs on Bitcoin?" Yeah, no tariffs

on Bitcoin. It's so wise and I think

people realizing that it is decoupling

from everything. It is such a unique

asset that shines on its own. Um, well,

thank you so much, Michael. The best

place to wrap up, I think, is just again

spotlighting how well Micro Strategy

Now, Strategy has performed on the

Bitcoin standard. When you put up those

charts of just how it's outperformed the

Magnificent 7, gold, bonds, everything

by far, it's crazy to me when I see

mainstream media still not understanding

um how powerful this could be for a

corporation and not jumping on board and

realizing how revolutionary and how

visionary you are. When do you think

mainstream media will come behind

companies like yours that are doing

something so innovative that's clearly

working? You know, it's an exponential

process. I you know, when I was at MIT,

I studied uh complex exponential um uh

systems. And they started with an

illustration where they say, well, you

have a you have a pond and there are

lily pads in the pond and it takes 30

days for the lily pads to spread across

the pond, but they're doubling every

day. On what day of the month will you

notice you have any lily pads? You know,

it's like it's a quick test of

exponential math, but you realize the

first three weeks of the month you don't

see any lily pads in the pot, right? All

of the and then you like notice a little

bit and then like in three days of the

month everything happens. And so I think

what's happening here is there's a

exponential phenomena. You know who

understands the value of our business?

Our investors. our investors understand,

right? And you met some of them at this

conference. And so the reason we

announced we're going to double our

capital raising program and the reason

the stock trades up when we announce

we're going to issue $21 billion of

equity is because the investors

understand they're on the journey with

us and we keep uh recruiting new

investors and we're I I think there was

some stat that I heard from an

investment bank. They said, uh, last

year your company was like 16% of all

the equity raised in the stock market or

something. So, you know, we're not half,

but the point is one company out of

5,000 companies that is raising, you

know, 16% of the capital on the market

suggests that there are a lot of equity

investors that are discovering what

we're doing. And you know what I've said

about Bitcoin, right? The secret of

Bitcoin and and the simple elegant truth

and the reason that it's spreading

virally everywhere on earth and the

reason it'll keep

spreading. So a lot of smart people in

the world, they just want to keep their

money. That's the secret, right? People

buy Bitcoin because they want to keep

their money. people are are starting to

buy Bitcoin treasury companies like

strategy because we've constructed a

very elegant powerful business model

based upon digital capital that strips

away all of the dozen risks you know

that are plaguing every other well-run

company in the world right now and so

investors are smart they think well how

do I get a return and avoid the risk and

what's working and you know more and

more are discovering bring our company

every day. You've pioneered the

corporate playbook and you're giving it

away. I know so many people are

grateful. Any final thoughts? Just happy

to be on the journey with you. Well,

thank you so much as always, Michael.

It's just a pleasure to be here and I

know so many people look up to you. It's

always wonderful to see you with a new

presentation that gives us something to

think about. So, thank you. My pleasure.

Thank you so much for checking out this

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