Why Strategy's Michael Saylor is still bullish on bitcoin investing despite recent pullback

Michael, so good to see you. Right off

the jump here, look, uh, we had Bitcoin

hit a hit a record high just a few weeks

ago, [snorts] $126,000.

We've seen this pullback here over the

past few weeks. I look at strategy stock

down about 27% over the past month. Are

investors losing faith in the Bitcoin

movement?

>> No, I don't I don't think they're losing

faith. Um, if you're an investor, uh, it

really comes down to what your time

horizon is and how much volatility can

you stomach. So, if you want max

performance, you're going to take max

volatility. Uh, strategies up 75% a year

on average for the last 5 years. So, you

can actually outperform Bitcoin if you

buy uh, an equity that's amplified like

MSTR.

If you don't want to trust anybody, you

want no counterparty risk, you buy

Bitcoin. Bitcoin's up 50% a year over

five years. No counterparty risk. It's

very straightforward. If you want to

have your cake and eat it too, you could

buy some convertible preferred like

STRK. STRK will get the V. Yeah, the V

on MSTR is like 6070. The V on Bitcoin

is 45. STRK would get your V to like

high 20s. and you get a mixture of a

dividend and principal protection and

and some of the upside of the common

equity. And if your time horizon is less

than four years and you don't have much

volatility uh to stomach, you shouldn't

buy the equity or the equity hybrids.

You should buy uh the credit something

like uh STRC.

you know, STRSC is is meant to be very

very stable around a $100 plus or minus

a few pennies and you get like a 10 and

10 and a half percent uh dividend, you

know, that's tax deferred and you're

you're getting the benefit of the crypto

economy, but you're not on the

volatility roller coaster. So,

everybody's got different risk

tolerance. They've all got different

pools of capital. The good news this

year is now you've got a variety of

different instruments you can use uh to

ride the digital wave,

>> Michael. Um and as those we've gotten

more instruments to ride the digital

wave, particularly as people have had

more and more ways to directly invest in

Bitcoin

strategy stock has not done as well. To

your point, it has over the past several

years. But again, if you're talking

about getting in now or if you got in

earlier this year, you wrote it down

even as Bitcoin was going up. Are you

concerned at all that the the crypto

treasury, the digital asset treasury

strategy that you pioneered

is losing a little bit of steam?

>> You know, over the last year, there's

been a hundred companies that have added

Bitcoin to their balance sheet. The

derivatives market and IBIT has surged.

The flows into the ETFs have surged. All

the major banks have announced support.

Uh the accounting has dramatically

improved. The tax regime has improved.

The administration support at the SEC,

the CFTC, the Treasury level has

improved. And so uh and the technology

has improved. You know, uh companies

like uh like Block have rolled out

support for Bitcoin on Square and Cash

App. So all the fundamentals are good.

If you're going to be an equity

investor, you have to think for

yourself. And you have to have a time

horizon of four years or longer. And

equity markets are either going to lead

or lag. And and occasionally they'll

perfectly reflect reality, but generally

it's it's only a few days a year when

they'll be perfectly rational. So, if

you don't have that four-year time

horizon and if you don't want to make

decisions based on fundamentals, if you

if you simply want to park your money in

a stable instrument and pick up a stable

yield, you should be a credit investor.

You shouldn't be an equity investor. I I

think the irony is is uh the

fundamentals of the industry are so much

better today than they were 12 months

ago that uh you've now got an

extraordinary riskreward opportunity.

Now is a much better time to invest. You

you know all the things that you wanted

to happen have happened. The market's

[snorts] sentiment is uh negative, but

that's that's an opportunity for the

equity investor that makes their own

decisions.

>> Michael, you're a look, you're seen as a

pioneer in this industry uh charting new

territory in cryptos and and Bitcoin.

What do you think about the likes of a

Jim Chenos and others like him that are

trying to profit off of you not doing so

well? You know, I don't really think

about Jim Chainos. I think that there'll

be some skeptics. They don't really

appreciate what Bitcoin is doing. They

don't understand digital capital. They

don't understand digital credit. But at

the end of the day, the big the big uh

dynamic in the industry is digital

capital has gone from nothing to$ two.5

trillion dollars over 15 years. Digital

credit didn't exist 12 months ago. Uh

we've issued nearly $8 billion of

digital credit. Digital credit is got a

tax equivalent yield of of four times

higher than bank credit. You know, you

can have a bank account that you know in

New York City that pays you 4% and it's

taxable or you could buy something like

STRC that pays you 10 a.5% that's tax

deferred. So the the market's evolving

uh and the short sellers aren't really

interested in the impact of AI or the

impact on digital assets to change the

way the world works. U they're just

interested in being skeptical as a

business. I I don't really focus on

them. Nothing nothing great has ever

been created by a short seller.

>> Um Michael, you've referred a couple

times to this new digital asset credit

that you guys have developed, STRC

Stretch. Um it's a preferred security

that as you mentioned pays out 10 a.5%

in yield. Um and this is also a way for

you all to not necessarily issue more

stock in the underlying equity in order

to pay for buying more Bitcoin and

therefore maybe not diluting those

underlying shares as much. Um but how

how far do you think you can take that

as sort of a funding mechanism for your

Bitcoin strategy?

Well, I I think the money market

industry is massive. There's $30

trillion worth of assets invested in

treasury type instruments in the United

States stretches about one 1% of 1% of

that industry. We it's about a $3

billion

uh issuance. Uh and and the big idea

here is you take a an asset appreciating

50% a year with a volatility in the

mid-40s and you strip the volatility

from 45 down to below five maybe to to

two three or four uh or even one and

then you extract about 10% dividend

yield. And if you do that you end up

with something which is yielding 6% more

than the risk-free rate. And when you

the v gets to one, you've got a sharp

ratio of six. So we're really uh

engaging in financial engineering to

distill pure uh currency yield above the

risk-free rate. And of course, the

common stock shareholders in MSTR get

the difference between the 10% that we

pay and the 50% that Bitcoin's been

performing. Uh long-term uh the math is

pretty simple. We expect Bitcoin to

appreciate about 30% a year for the next

20 years. We expect to pay about 10%

dividend yield on the preferreds. 2/3 of

the benefit go to the common equity

shareholders. And most of the volatility

is stomach by the common equity

shareholders and the corporation. And

the credit investors get this pure 10%

uh return of capital dividend. That

means it's tax deferred. they don't have

to pay tax on it until they sell the

underlying instrument. Uh, and that

means that they're able to invest in a

credit instrument that pays them a 10%

dividend instead of holding a money

market that pays them 4% and a taxable

coupon.

>> Michael, of course, uh, we're having

this conversation the day after the

government shutdown officially has

ended. Things have to restart up again,

but still record setting shutdown. What

did you think about the length of the

shutdown? And do you believe it

reinforces your long-term view on

Bitcoin and various other cryptos?

Because look, at the end of the day,

record setting shutdown. I mean, how can

you have trust in the dollar?

>> Well, you know, we we joke there's no

tariffs on Bitcoin. Bitcoin has no

employees. It's got no corporate

headquarters. It is the it is an an

index reflecting the digital economy or

the global digital economy. So if you

just like to buy um 121 millionth of the

global free market, then you buy one

bitcoin. uh as people lose confidence in

a currency in Africa or South America or

Asia, as they lose confidence in a

government, if they think that their

favorite company might make a mistake,

uh war, famine, pestilence, fire, flood,

uncertainty, acts of God, all of these

things are risk factors, and they're all

risk factors that Bitcoin doesn't

undergo and doesn't experience. So, so

as people get educated, I think they can

see the appeal of buying digital capital

instead of investing their money in

equity capital or real estate capital or

fiat capital or or corporate credit

capital instruments. And so this is all

a teaching moment, but I think that uh

every single month that goes by, more

and more people start to appreciate the

benefit of owning 121 millionth of all

the money in the world forever.

>> Michael, do you think uh in light of the

shutdown that investors have lost faith

faith in our country?

>> No, I don't think they've lost faith in

our c country. I think the country is

going to do just fine. This is a hiccup.

It's uh it's not our finest finest

moment, but right now the exciting

things that are going on are digital

intelligence, digital assets, digital

capital, digital credit.

It's pretty clear that money is going to

move at the speed of light. It's pretty

clear that a billion AIs are going to

think a billion times faster than us

human beings. You can see a world where

a billion robots are going to build

everything we need, where the cars are

going to drive themselves, where the

products are going to figure stuff out

for us. So, we're moving toward an

intelligent world that is is millions of

times more efficient and uh and more

empowering. So, in a world where a

billion robots do everything I want

before I think to ask for the thing, I I

don't know how I won't be better off.

Michael, is there a risk that some of

those robots or perhaps quantum

computers combined with generative AI

that they crack Bitcoin or that they

think of something better than Bitcoin

and it becomes obsolete?

>> No, I don't think there is a risk. I

think that um technology will improve

and hardware will improve and at some

point if uh the hardware gets more

powerful, we'll have to upgrade the

software that protects our system. So,

just like you can expect your bank to

upgrade their software and you can

expect to upgrade your Apple software

and your Google software and your

Microsoft software and you can expect to

upgrade your hardware devices. I'm on

the iPhone 17 Pro Max right now. You'll

upgrade your computer. Bitcoin is a

protocol, but it runs on hardware and

software nodes all around the world. The

hardware is being upgraded every few

months. The software is being upgraded

annually. And so the software and

hardware that runs the Bitcoin protocol

is going to get upgraded just like your

Apple and Android and Microsoft software

will get upgraded.

>> I was going to say Tim Cook sending you

a check in the mail, but I guess now

Microsoft and uh and and Alphabet have

got to send you a check too because you

mentioned all of those. Um let's let's

talk a little bit about the the bigger

market because of the AI advances that

you're talking about. You know, you're

very familiar with the.com bubble,

right? because you founded Micro

Strategy in '89, you went public in '98.

Um, I was looking at the history of the

stock chart here. You went public at $12

a share. The stock at that time spiked

as high as 313 in 2000 and then crashed

down. It remained uh below 20 until you

initiated your Bitcoin buying strategy.

I'm curious, you know, as you look back

at that crash, what that taught you and

whether you see any parallels today.

Obviously, you're aware of the big

bubble debate going on right now.

I I think it teaches you to focus. Um

don't overextend. Uh you might have 10

good ideas, but you're better to focus

upon your one idea and commercialize the

one idea. It also just reminds you uh

that no matter where you are as a

corporation, you can always improve uh

the company's outlook and you can

improve and create shareholder value by

uh harnessing the next wave. People

wrote off Apple for dead. I mean Michael

Dell famously told uh Apple to shut down

and give the money back to the

shareholders back around 97. And then

Steve Jobs returned and he harnessed the

internet. And then he harnessed MP3

files and and digital music in order to

revive Apple and then eventually created

a crazy thing called the iPhone and it

became the most valuable company in the

world. I think history is replete with

examples, you know, whether it's the

internet or whether it's AI chips. uh

people, you know, people wrote off GPUs

as being irrelevant and all of a sudden

we have the chat GPT moment. Uh the

Bitcoin miners were struggling and then

AI explodes and now everybody wants

their energy. Um I I think uh that

digital intelligence, digital assets,

digital capital are creating the most

compelling opportunities for

corporations in the world today. Um I

think the important thing is to use them

the right way. For example, we used AI

in order to design those five digital

credit instruments. So, people ask, "How

do you make a billion dollars with AI?"

Well, we we created $8 billion with AI

just by designing new types of

securities. Uh yesterday, STRC traded

$175

million. It's the most successful

preferred stock in this in the century,

maybe ever, in the history of the

capital markets. uh it was designed

completely with AI. It's a hundred times

better than a good preferred stock. I I

would encourage anybody with any

corporation to to think about how how

you turbocharge your company by using

digital assets, digital currency,

digital capital, or digital

intelligence. There isn't a company that

you can't improve using technology in

the year 2025. Michael, later on in the

uh in the program, I'm going to be

sitting down with Eric Trump and Asher

Gnut. They're of course working American

Bitcoin and and Hut 8. HUD 8 mining

those operations for American Bitcoin.

And I know they're very focused on power

generation. As you look at your

long-term outlook for Bitcoin, other

cryptocurrencies, how concerned are you

that this country can't produce the

power it needs to meet the demands of

cryptocurrency?

You know, I I think uh the company got a

wakeup call back in 2020 and 2021. Uh I

talked to a lot of power companies and

and energy companies and they were about

to decommission all their nuclear

reactors. We we were staring at all the

nuclear reactors getting decommissioned

and there was a movement to shut down

nuclear energy in this country and of

course in Germany they shut them all

down. uh from 19 m early '7s73 all the

way till 2023

uh the nuclear industry was persona non

gratada and it was politically incorrect

and I think the explosion of AI and when

people started using these AIs and

realized they're actually quite useful

and they're transformational

it created uh it created a a

reconsideration and and a political

shift in in the United States, the

Overton window shifted and and as soon

as Google and Microsoft and Apple and

Amazon realized they needed energy,

nuclear became cool again. And we

flipped from 50 years of not wanting to

build uh power. Uh whether it's nuclear

or natural gas was out of favor too.

People wanted to shut down natural gas.

All of that changed in the past two

years. And now now the political

sentiment in this country is we should

uh develop natural gas. We should

develop nuclear power. And of course

we're only about 1 to two years into

that uh sentiment shift. But I have

confidence that the United States is is

going to move from a lagard to a leader

in the energy generation business

because now we see we need the energy to

drive our cars. We need the energy to

power up our robots. We need the energy

to think a billion times faster, a

billion times quicker. And we need the

energy to defend our digital assets like

the Bitcoin network. And the only thing

that was lacking was the political will.

And I think that has flipped 180

degrees. There's not there's bipartisan

consensus. There's not even a debate

right now about whether we should

generate more energy or build more power

plants. Four years ago, you couldn't

have done it. And so I think we've been

saved by the explosion of digital

intelligence and digital assets in this

country. It'll be good for the nation.

It'll be good for the world.

>> Michael, um, obviously you're a serious

guy, right? We've talked a number of

times. You think very deeply about all

these issues, but then sometimes I look

at your ex account and I see you posting

or reposting these various sort of

digitally generated images, AI generated

images of yourself. They're a lot of

fun, right? Of you, we're showing one of

you in a top ad various Bitcoin bevelia

superheroes, etc. Like, you know, I'm

just curious how you think about that.

Is that, you know, is is your Bitcoin

um, you know, advocacy? Is there an

element of shtick to it as well? Are you

having a little fun with it? How do you

think about all of that?

You know, when I was growing up, there

were three channels on television and

they turned off the television uh the

signal at like 11:00 at night or or

midnight and for 8 hours there was no

programming. There was no internet. Uh

we didn't have today we have infinite

free music, infinite free television,

infinite streaming video, infinite free

YouTube. You can get lost fall in a Tik

Tok hole and Instagram hole. You can get

on uh stream uh and twitch. Uh there is

infin we have managed to manufacture

infinite everything. It used to be you

had to have money to get a newspaper or

a magazine and now you can see we live

in a world where we have uh to say a

million times more content would be

probably an understatement. So the

entire society is being inundated with

information and their attention span has

shrunk and so people just don't have an

hour to listen to what you have to say.

They don't they sometimes they don't

have a minute. Often times I think you

know should I say it in a podcast? Well

maybe someone will listen to it. Can I

say it in five minutes? That might be

too long. Can I say it in 30 seconds?

Sometimes I'll write a paragraph and you

think, "No, I don't have a paragraph.

People will read the first sentence."

And then I write the sentence and I

think people aren't going to read to the

end of the sentence. And so, uh, the the

thing you learn from social media is you

need to get to the point. So, how about

tell me what you want to say in one

second. And the cliche is a picture is

worth a thousand words. And so sometimes

I don't give you a thousand words

because you would lose 99.9%

of the audience. In fact, I would say

you probably lose 99.99%

of the audience if it took a thousand

words. Show me the picture and that will

go viral. And and you're doing people a

service to give them an idea that

travels a million times faster that is a

million times easier to digest because

people just don't have time. They're

busy. They're being inundated. And and

when you see those images, that is us

communicating something cheerful,

constructive, useful, perhaps profitable

to someone. But you know like like if

someone says hey I wrote a book on this

here's the book do you want to read it I

mean how many books can you read you

know literally every book written in the

history of the human race is available

for free to you right now do you really

want someone with a good idea to give

you 250 pages and tell you to read it or

do you just want them to boil it down to

one sentence one tagline or one picture

because I'm like show me the picture

okay got it now I can move on with my

life thank you

>> you're making a lot of sense to me,

Michael. Uh stay with us for a second.

Let's bring in our social correspondent

for the day, Yao Fenc's Ally Canal with

some of what she's hearing from our

online audience during this interview.

Ally?

>> Yeah. Well, Brian, Michael Sailor just

talking about infinite content on social

media, which is the perfect segue since

we are talking and taking your questions

on social media. Plenty of viewers

chiming in. And starting off with a

strong one here, Michael. First

question. Do you see Bitcoin catching up

to and surpassing gold's market cap by

2035? What say you?

>> I do. I think we're in a Bitcoin. We're

in the digital gold rush. And 2035 is

the 0.99 year. That means that 99% of

all the Bitcoin will have been mined in

the year 2035.

There's only there's if you want

Bitcoin, you need to get it between now

and then because the last 1% of Bitcoin

comes out over a hundred years. Um,

yeah, there's no doubt in my mind

Bitcoin will be a larger asset class

than gold by the year 2035.

>> And another social viewer wants to know

why should an investor buy strategy

stock instead of a Bitcoin or spot ETF?

>> Yeah. Um, if you don't want to take any

counterparty risk and if you have a long

time horizon,

then you should probably buy the Bitcoin

uh because you can take custody and take

it anywhere in the world. Um, if you

simply want the asset, you want it in a

brokerage account, you should buy the

ETF like IIIT. It's uh going to take you

10 seconds to do that. It's easy to

borrow against it. Um if you're a

believer and you want amplified exposure

to digital uh to digital capital and

also if you believe in digital credit

like our mission at strategy is we want

to give a billion people a bank account

that pays them 10% tax deferred. If you

think that's a cool idea to give someone

in Japan or Europe or Switzerland or New

York City a bank account that pays them

10% with no volatility. And if you think

that Bitcoin can power that, then you're

buying our stock because we're a digital

credit factory. And if you want to

outperform Bitcoin and you're ready to

get on the roller coaster, you should uh

you should buy the equity. But if your

if you your short your time horizon is

less than four years, if you need the

money back in 4 weeks or 4 months, then

you probably want something principal

protection protected. You want low

volatility, you should buy a credit

instrument like STRC is literally

designed to get the V, you know, down

right now it's seven. Uh whereas

Bitcoin's V is 45 and Strategy's V is

65. And if you want something that's

going to be extremely lowvol, you should

buy a credit instrument like a treasury

credit product like STRC. You'll uh

you'll outperform your money market. you

know, you might very well do as good as

the S&P index, but you'll be able to buy

it and sell it and get your your capital

back, you know, in a in a month, in a

quarter, in a year, and you don't have

to, you know, worry about the roller

coaster.