The price of Bitcoin is going to go up to $10 million coin.
The difference between 2% inflation or 2% deflection per year and 0% deflection or 0% inflation
is the difference between an average life expectancy of 70 and immortality.
What's the difference between perfect money and imperfect money?
Perfect money is economic immortality.
Imperfect money is we all have a short, brutal life.
The Chinese will embrace Bitcoin, name a company that's still in existence
from 100 years ago off the top of your head where the stock is worth more today in real terms than it was then.
What if I told you I could make your company live forever?
When you have a need to know, when you have a crisis, if your country is in crisis, if your company is in crisis, if your family is in crisis.
When the bank freezes and fails and the currency crashes and you have a business, or you have a life and you're in that culture, you have a need to know.
Your eyes are open. Now you adopt Bitcoin.
Trump has discovered Bitcoin. Trump has a need to know.
Mike, I don't remember. When did we first meet?
And you'll say, well, you know, the first time we met, you kicked me out and told me I was a moron.
And they're like, I don't remember that at all. Did I do that?
Sorry, I did that.
The difference between me swinging a baseball bat at your head while you're looking that way versus me doing this with a baseball bat saying,
you should duck. I'm about to swing it, right?
One of them is interesting. Maybe it's entertaining.
And the other is brutal. Fire is scary.
People run from the fire. Don't wave the fire in your sister's face.
When Apple and Count is Bitcoin, I think they may look at it and think, wait a minute.
Bitcoin, multi-signature, cloud.
What if we actually make the Apple watch a signing device and combine it with the iPhone and combine it with the third signing device on a laptop.
And then we do something with the cloud. Maybe the future biggest bank in the world is Apple computer.
And Apple is going to give us easy to use safe, multi-sign that six-year-olds can figure out.
How's Bitcoin going to scale?
You're going to see a growth in layer 2s, a growth in layer 3s.
You're going to see the transactions on layer 1 get bigger.
The average transaction size is going to go to 2000 and 20,000 and 200,000 and 2 million and 20 million.
Do you want the billion people in China to be rich and do you want to be rich?
While the Chinese government still has a bunch of laws that you may or may not agree with?
Or do you want the people in China to be poor and you to be poor while the Chinese government has a set of laws that you don't agree with?
Do you think that you're so great, you're Superman, that you can just go and topple the entire government by barking on Twitter?
How did Bitcoin change?
Hi, Michael. How you doing? Thank you for being on my podcast.
Awesome. Happy to be here.
It's actually my second in-person podcast ever. I have done 151 podcast episodes and you're my second one in-person.
I love that a lot.
They're a lot better in real life.
Definitely a lot better.
I had totally different questions planned and I just loved the presentation you gave at Bitcoin Prague right now.
We are now at the Bitcoin Prague event.
I wanted to just start up with the income that you gave the entry in the presentation you gave about.
Bitcoin is the singularity where science collides with economics.
I needed to think about that a few times before I like, maybe I grasp what it is.
Can we go deeper on that? What does this mean on many levels? What do you mean with that?
The scientific method, the application of mathematics, discipline, logic, experimentation, engineering, trial and error.
If we think about the scientific method applied to astronomy, right?
The Copernican revolution and the breakthroughs and astronomy, they came because of a new instrument.
Advances and optics allowed us to create a telescope.
Before the telescope, before that technology, if you will, for 100,000 years, human beings looked up in the sky and they imagined they understood what was going on.
They filled in the blanks with their superstition and their creativity and their fears and hopes and dreams and religion mixed in with observation.
They somehow got around to concluding that the universe revolved around the earth.
If anybody suggested the universe did not revolve around the earth, they were burned or canceled or ignored.
That's a horrific wrong theory and it causes you to make lots of mistakes and navigation.
Maybe you'll never be able to master concepts that would be critical to advancing the civilization.
The scientific revolution applied to astronomy started with the technology.
When that telescope was created, we could see the moons of Jupiter.
When we could see the moons of Jupiter, we could start to calculate the impact of the moons of Jupiter.
We could correlate those orbits to what we knew about Kepler's laws and mathematics and somehow mathematics and physics were impacted by engineering and technology.
They resulted in a profound paradigm shift and that paradigm shift was maybe the universe doesn't revolve around the earth.
It seems quite obvious that that's not the way the universe works.
That catapulted us into an entirely new world and what follows next is Newtonian physics.
After that, the invention of all of the mechanisms that made civilization possible.
Economics is pseudo science before Satoshi. It's a quasi-religious liberal arts and it's full of people's opinions and prejudices and biases.
In the absence of an instrument, in this case, is perfect money or proper money.
If you don't have an instrument of proper money that doesn't have deflection, then you can't posit a properly functioning economy.
So all of the economists before Satoshi, they were trying to work out the laws of economics with seashells and glass beads and pieces of paper and credit instruments.
Those are all imperfect instruments. There's so imperfect you can never create a beautiful or perfect mechanism.
In the absence of the ability to manufacture the perfect mechanism, you can't move forward with scientific advance.
When I say Bitcoin is singularity where science collides with economics, I mean that we invented an instrument.
The instrument was a combination of the math of cryptography.
It was the engineering and the manufacturing of semiconductors.
It was the computer science of the internet.
When you put the internet and semiconductors and you put cryptography together with a few insights, you can create this mechanism that we call Bitcoin.
That becomes a mechanism to keep true track of money to measure true money.
When I say it like that, it reminds me of another great scientific revolution. It was John Harrison's invention of the clock.
The perfect maritime clock that could be used to calculate longitude on the ocean.
Before Harrison's clock, there was no way to calculate longitude. Before longitude, we didn't know where we were on the sea.
It was a profound breakthrough in the history of navigation.
It was made possible by Harrison's clock.
Harrison's clock was a mechanism so precise that you could keep track of universal time.
What we called Greenwich mean time. Now it's UTE or universal time.
Once you had a mechanism precise enough to keep track of time in Greenwich at the Royal Observatory, you could put it on a ship and you could compare it to a second clock which kept track of local time and subtracting the one from the other and multiplying by 15 degrees per hour gave you a longitude.
Science advances with the arrival of a certain instrument until you have that instrument for 100,000 years you can't calculate longitude.
Until you have the telescope for 100,000 years you can't see the moons of Jupiter and you can't figure out Kaplars laws really work.
You just can't you can pause it but you can't prove before cryptography in the internet modern semiconductors you couldn't create a bitcoin if you can't create a bitcoin you can't create perfect money.
If you don't have perfect money, then you can't actually pause it in economy where the money doesn't deflect where the money is true.
When the money becomes true the money is the asset which is used to channel capital through time and space.
The essence of economics is the proper allocation of capital and so Satoshi gave us a perfect money the perfect money made it possible to capture, to store, to channel, to distribute capital to program capital in an economy.
How profound is that? The difference between 2% inflation or 2% deflection per year and 0% deflection or 0% inflation is the difference between an average life expectancy of 70 and immortality.
We figured out how not to die is pretty profound. When you think about it like that, what's the difference between perfect money and imperfect money? Perfect money is economic immortality.
Imperfect money is we all have a short brutal life. Terminated early. There's a time when there's a 40% infant mortality rate between the age of 0 and 5.
Your kids are going to die. There's a time when the likelihood that a woman giving birth dies in childbirth was like 30%.
Before science crashed into medicine, your children were more likely than not to die. Your wife was more likely than not to die in childbirth.
If you got her pregnant three times it was a death sentence.
You think about life before science and pension on medicine. Pretty big deal. You think about science and penging upon astronomy. A pretty big deal. Science blasting into navigation. Pretty big deal. Now science colliding with economics. Pretty big deal.
For me, I've asked the question so many times on my podcast. How does Bitcoin change things? How does Bitcoin change society on a big level?
You also see in the presentation, you don't change Bitcoin. Bitcoin changes you. You also see paradigm shift that Bitcoin is.
It changes the way we interact with so many things. How different will be a world when we look out like 50, 100, maybe even like a thousand years where we have this sound money on a digital realm.
All of the sudden this perfect money. How different is world and how what is possible on that scale?
I think if you look at economic creatures, the classic economic creature in modern societies, the corporation, the average life expectancy of a corporation is something like 10 years.
You create a company and it lasts more than 10 years than you've lived longer than most. The number of corporations that are more than 100 years old.
What percentage of people live to be more than 100? 0.1% or 0.01% what percentage of corporations love to be more than 100? 0.001%.
What if I told you I could make your company live forever? How profound we're talking about eliminating corporate mortality.
We're talking about stretching economic vitality easily by a factor of 10, maybe by a factor of 100, maybe by a factor of a million.
How will it change society? Well, it won't change society uniformly the same everywhere. Gibson says the future is already with us but it's not evenly distributed.
In the modern world today, there are people in New York City that live in skyscrapers up 80 floors and there are people that live in Africa and mudhuts.
You can find certain people that are still stuck in neolithic stone age cultures if you look hard enough and you can find people that if the electricity was turned off to their elevator, they die.
Very profound difference. I think you've got to look at Bitcoin is this pure digital capital which means it's the technology to capitalize a family capitalize an individual capitalize a corporation capitalize an institution a charity nonprofit or a country.
A country or city or university right? We throw away the world, throw around the word capitalize as a co-cualism like, oh, you're going to capitalize on that.
But if you think and that's because economics has been pseudo science in capital capital has been kind of a liberal arts arts type word if you walked up to people on the street and said, what do you think capital is and you asked them before Satoshi before that I said Bitcoin.
It's not clear what they would give you as an answer. They would say something about Karl Marx that it was bad or capitalized to do something with it, but it's such a such a fuzzy word.
But any aftermath of Bitcoin capital is economic energy and I give you an asset to store economic energy and now if I can store economic energy in a digital asset, I can move the capital potentially at the speed of light at high frequency.
So I can move it through space. Can you actually oscillate capital at 10 megahertz? You can oscillate, you know, you can create a 10 megahertz signal, right, 10 kilohertz signal, you could probably hear right.
So at certain frequencies when you're when you're vibrating energy, right, you get a result.
Capital has never been something we could work with, we could program. So Bitcoin allows you to program in channel capital through time and space.
And in time, you know, it means that we have the hope of addressing things like global payments for for 8 billion people at the speed of light off of mobile phones with no intermediary, right.
So that that's interesting. How do I actually do 100 transactions a second if I'm an AI bot and I want to trip through cyber space, right. I mean, that's interesting.
You won't do that without digital energy or digital capital. But the other issue is, well, how do you actually send a bunch of capital forward in time 100 years.
Right. And there's you can't do it with gold. You can't do it with the building. You can't do it with a share of stock name a company that's still in existence from 100 years ago off the top of your head where the stock is worth more today in real terms than it was.
Then it was then we'd be kind of challenging right. So so projecting economic energy through time and space has really been more of of an aspirational fantasy.
Right. Or an art that it was ever a science or engineering discipline Bitcoin. It takes something from the artistic and from the religious and from and from the political domain and it moves it into the engineering domain where now there is actually a precise way to move capital around to store capital to capitalize.
You know, and I guess your question is how will the world change profoundly. Right. I mean, I can create an AI that can live in cyber space capitalized by Bitcoin that will live forever that will have economic mortality that is that is completely sovereign from a company of person a country.
That AI could in theory split itself, you know, go viral and spawn 10 million more a eyes that are all sovereign. It's a life form right. It's right. I could end up I can endow a university and nonprofit a foundation with Bitcoin could perceive a conceivably lost a thousand years without anybody working for it. Right.
I can I can create new types of entities. I can create companies that don't have a life expectancy of 10 years and I can create a company with a likely life expectancy of a hundred or 500 or a thousand years.
I can have different missions. I can think differently about how I capitalize or finance my country.
I think think differently about how I build every product and service could be different. Right. If you think about products that are around us all all the time, you know, life insurance products or or any kind of a new products all of those things right will be disrupted. Maybe they'll be dematerialized.
There's a there's an entire industry that shuffles around 400 trillion dollars of assets. So we have 400 trillion dollars of 20th century analog assets that are inefficient that are toxic that are delutive.
And those are handled by a massive financial establishment that's inefficient. Right. And so you have a very inefficient establishment handling inefficient assets trading them back and forth.
And efficiently you could obliterate it all. You could just replace it all with just I have Bitcoin. I hold it. I don't need the establishment. I don't need the bank to hold it. I don't need the Wall Street firm to trade it. I don't need to trade it. I don't need to diversify across.
Like why do I buy the S&P 500 index? Why do I have to buy 500 different companies when I know that most of them are not even that good or that successful, but I have an entire entire financial infrastructure to to trade and rebalance inferior assets as a store of value.
So what if you just obliterate it all right, maybe it all just goes away. So I think the world changes, but it'll it'll change in every sector in every part of the world at a different rate, depending upon politics, depending upon leadership, depending upon culture.
And there'll be profoundly beautiful things that will be created that you could have never created before. There'll be terrifying things that will be created that no one conceptualized before and how we parts of the world where they do it the same way in 50 years they did it 30 years ago, I suppose.
This also brings me to a question that I planned before I saw your presentation about global game field right now. We have in the US election is already Bitcoin a big topic with Trump accepting it Trump speaking about it.
You election I saw the Austrian few of it and I never heard any word of Bitcoin crypto or anything of that. So in the you it seems to be a non topic till now at least like not a public topic like in the American elections. How do you see right now the global game field with like a salvador as a small counter that goes like bigger steps America making more
more topic and then you in the China how do you see the global game field right now.
Bitcoin inside is restricted to those with a need to know love that rule.
When you have a need to know when you have a crisis if your country is in crisis if your company is in crisis if your family is in crisis.
When the bank freezes and fails and the currency crashes and you have a business or you or you have a life and you're in that culture you have a need to know your eyes are open now you now you start to take Bitcoin seriously now you adopt Bitcoin.
Trump has discovered Bitcoin Trump has a need to know right El Salvador their currency crashed you know they had a need to know I think people in in countries like Lebanon right they don't have a reliable banking system they have a need to know.
In places where the society is affluent and the leaders are affluent and they feel comfortable and they don't feel threatened or challenged if they're comfortable in their political standing if they're not afraid of being being driven out of office they don't have a need to know if they're not insecure about their currency if they're not insecure about their banks they don't need to know.
Right and those cases they'll be the latest the last to embrace Bitcoin or appreciate it because they don't have a need to know.
But the world's full of places that where you do have a need to know and it's not just places but it's people right the minority out of power right who are disenfranchised or disinherited right they used to say about America right who settle in America it was the second sons.
The second son the settle in America the first son inherited the family estate in Europe and the second son wasn't going to inherit anything and so if the second son wanted property a future hope they got on a ship they cross the ocean a great peril to themselves because there was an entire continent where they might actually get a start and they might have a chance the second sons had a need to know.
And I think Bitcoin is a great equalizer in that regard you know the wealthy affluent comfortable won't have a need to know they will be blind to it and those who are disenfranchised who are you know who are looking for a better future they will be there are the hopeful ones but they're also the seekers the searchers right there they're going to look they're going to find it.
They are finding it hundreds of millions are finding it they'll embrace it they'll benefit from it the rest of the world over time will discover it when they have a need to know.
And that's where I also love to think it was the last rule even where we spread Bitcoin with love and not hate because I was also in that time where like this toxic maxi like oh you have to get Bitcoin and you have to do it but in the last one you have to do it.
But in the last half year year I kind of transformed like oh if you hear if you have questions I'm here for the community I'm here for everyone who has questions and want to learn more about Bitcoin and I help you and that I love that rule a lot and how did you come to do that rule to the spread Bitcoin with love and not hate and also it kind of ties to the other rule with fear not not against fear but for Bitcoin.
Well it comes from a variety of different sources my experience in business as a sales person and and I've had thousands of sales people that I've worked with or have worked for me over time I've noticed the great ones they go and they offer they offer the customer something and the customer tells them to get out their stupid their foolish the product stinks they don't want it they don't want to get out of it.
They don't want it they don't need it right really good sales people they smile they say I understand I'm here I'm here if things change call me if you need me you know I understand you don't have a need right now thank you for your time but here's my card should certain circumstances change will be will be there and when I when I was young.
My first reaction was the customer said they didn't want to buy or they they criticize my product I would get angry at them and say they're stupid.
But if you but if you go to a big there's a phrase the customer is always right.
If you go to a big rich customer whatever it is you know and and they say your product stinks and you know reactions what you're too stupid to appreciate it.
Years will go by they'll you know the existing thing they're using will break they will need your product.
They don't they won't remember whether they were mean to you.
They will definitely remember if you said something mean to them so if you actually got in a fight with them the first time around then they'll just remember that you were rude to them they won't call you back they'll go to.
Vender B or vendor C or vendor D so it's very bad game theory you know to tell the customer they're wrong especially when they're wrong.
If the customer is rude to you you don't get rude back you smile you take your beating the customer is always right and you just stay ever present in a cheerful constructive way.
Because over time that sales behavior is the behavior that wins you the customer and eventually you'll have a lot of happy customers and all kind of laugh and and they'll say you know.
My god remember when did we first meet and you know and you say well you know the first time we met you kicked me out to me always a moron and they're like I remember that at all did I do that sorry did that.
Like and that's the story of life with all sales people everywhere and so think like a sales person of course they don't appreciate what you have to offer when they first hear about it because people's natural reaction is always to reject the new.
You know another experience I have is just looking at you know behaviors on social media like Twitter someone post you know I don't get Bitcoin it seems stupid to me it's probably bad for the U.S. or bad for the euro or bad for China or bad for whatever you know of your responses you know your responses well you're just too stupid to appreciate it and I hope you never buy it.
Okay well what you've done is you've just vented fresh frustration it's a weakness it sends a message of immaturity and then the people that are fans of that person the people that are followers of them they don't know what they think one way or the other all they know is you are mean to someone they like so when your favorite celebrity gets attacked by someone for not understanding Bitcoin people are like I don't know about Bitcoin but I know I like my life.
You know favorite actor actress or singer so you alienate their followers because of your attitude you don't you know by being angry or hateful so hate never works you're not going to change their mind all you're going to do is swing a bunch of observers on the fence to take the point of view that you're just irritating and at some point they just think well you might be right but I don't like you so I think that's not only great but you know
I don't care if you're right.
I just don't like, you're just not a nice person.
And so there's a lot of people in the world
that are neutral and their view is they just don't want
to buy from a person they don't like,
whether you're right or not.
If you understand sales over time,
you realize that if you had a cure for cancer
and the customer is dying of cancer,
they still aren't gonna buy the cure from you
unless you're charming.
You package it appropriately.
You knock on there or 10 times.
You explain to them how it's gonna save their life.
You listen to them yell at you, you let them vent,
you sit through their temper tantrums,
you find them financing for the cure to cancer.
You let them disparage you, your dog, your family,
your color scheme, your logo,
when you come back and after about the 19th time,
oh, you have the cure to my cancer?
Oh, okay, I'll take that.
But you have to sell it.
You can't just think that I'm brilliant,
I invented the solution, so therefore,
they should just immediately acknowledge my brilliance
and take this gift I gave them.
That's just not the way the world works.
And if you have that attitude,
you're just always gonna be disappointed.
As a salesperson, you would fail, right?
And so I think we're introducing a new idea.
If someone is open-minded, you introduce the idea.
If they react negatively, you can't disagree
with them, you can't take a head-on fight.
What you can do is perhaps introduce a different idea,
a 90-degree oblique idea.
I see you think blah, blah, this is bad
for one of your constituents,
but it would be really good
for another one of your constituents, right?
Maybe you hate those people on Wall Street,
but this will be good for the people that you wanna help, right?
You can introduce a new idea
and then you just have to gracefully withdraw and wait
for them to have a need.
And you just keep yourself in the game, right?
I love it so much because I think this is the one thing
that can actually everybody can do
and we can actually accelerate Bitcoin adoption
because if you are the one,
I always do it like that when someone comes to Bitcoin
and they're negative about it, like I'm always,
I'm not responding badly about it, I'm just listening
and they will come again
because they see Bitcoin in the new state
they come with Bitcoin and they come again.
And what I'm curious about and this was the one question
that was in the mind when I heard the presentation,
when you said you don't change Bitcoin,
Bitcoin changes you.
For me, it's really not quite that because I'm so young,
so I've got Bitcoin with 21, so it's like,
I was in nobody with 21 and I got Bitcoin
so I just developed my character.
But with you, you got Bitcoin
at the latest stage in your life
as you already had a lot of experience.
How did Bitcoin change you if it all?
Well, first, first we were looking for a defensive strategy, right?
And so my first experience at Bitcoin was
this was a defensive treasury strategy
I could use to save my company.
And so I studied enough to conclude I could buy it.
And so after I did that, I realized,
wow, there's a lot more to Bitcoin
than just digital gold,
just making a digital technology investment.
And so I started actively researching.
So one way Bitcoin changed me is it had me go down the rabbit hole
and I started studying economics, Austrian economics, right?
Bitcoin led me to read Murray Rothbard,
a history of economic thought and to read conceive in liberties
and then it led me to go back and read all of,
reread all of world history
and then it led me into a thousand podcasts.
And then it led me to listen to,
to listen to dozens of podcasts
on Bitcoin development and study the Bitcoin wars
and then start thinking about,
and then it led me to think about the rest of the crypto industry
and then it led me to go back and listen to every word
uttered by Gary Gensler in a class he taught at MIT
two years before even knew about I cared about Bitcoin.
And pretty soon you're reading books you wouldn't expect to read.
You're reading every bill about the crypto industry going through Congress.
So it sucked me into the state of being a student again.
Most of the time you think once you're past the age of 20 something,
you're not a student anymore, right?
You don't need to be a student.
And Bitcoin taught me that I really needed to go back and relearn everything.
I needed to relearn economics, I needed to relearn politics,
I needed to relearn technology.
And then I needed, and that led me to go back and look at my own company again
and say, maybe I need to rethink how we're going to use this.
And that led us to issuing convertible bonds to buy Bitcoin.
And that led us to thinking about issuing equity to buy Bitcoin.
That led us to thinking, well, we really,
it's not enough that we learn how to do it.
We need to educate other corporations on how to do it.
When I discovered Bitcoin, or when I first bought Bitcoin,
I was ready to retire.
I thought I had served more than 30 years as a public company CEO.
I thought, I have nothing left to prove in the world.
There's not much for me to do.
I'll just go ahead and retire and gracefully disappear from history.
And Bitcoin plopped itself into my life and first teased me.
And then seduced me.
And then it dragged me on that stage today.
And so I was dragged onto a world stage and I found myself now instead of quietly retiring.
I was now drawn into a role of advocacy, such that I would get on a plane and fly to
a Sam Pala or fly to Uruguay or fly to Prague.
And obsess over things that I never need to obsess over.
And go back on CNBC or go on Fox, go on television and
or sit down and record 1,000 hours of podcast.
And these are all things that I discovered late in life.
I would say I'm a late bloomer, right?
I'm much older than the average Bitcoiner, right?
And so I was like, how did this all happen?
I think it's Bitcoin inspired me, maybe inspired me, catalyzed me.
So it changed how I spend my time.
It changed my intellectual interest.
It changed our corporate strategy.
And it gave me a mission and I felt compelled to do it, right?
Bitcoin serves us all up a mission if we listen carefully to what it has to tell us.
I love it a lot.
From all those rules, 21 rules that you presented at Bitcoin Prague, what is the favorite one?
Like if you had to pick one and why is it that?
I mean, I think the most important one is the final one, spread Bitcoin with love.
Right? Bitcoin is a solution to 8 billion people's problems.
Bitcoin is the transformation of capital from analog to digital.
Bitcoin is the singularity that brings science to economics.
Bitcoin is instrumental for the human race to reach its full potential.
If we're going to 10X and 100X or 1000X from here, we can't do it without mastering
this sort of digital capital, right, without mastering digital energy.
And so we need to spread it to the world.
When ever something moves faster, then the environment can adjust.
We get a phenomenon known as a shock wave.
When I move faster through error faster, then the rate of which the error can get out of the way.
Right? The rate at which the error moves or the error communicates with itself is called the speed of sound.
It's literally the speed of sound. The reason that the sound moves that fast,
that's how fast the error is carrying it.
So when I move faster than the speed of sound, I create a shock wave.
When I create a shock wave, there's just sound and fury and a sonic boom and turbulence.
And it's very disruptive. It's very painful.
Right? And so Bitcoin is that shock wave moving through the civilization.
And on one hand, we feel impelled to spread it, to share it with our friends, with our family,
with our corporation, with our country, with our politicians, with our intellectuals,
with our leaders. We need to share it. But nobody likes being slammed into,
you know, at supersonic speed. You know, that's painful.
It's the difference between going below the speed of sound and going fast in the speed of sound,
is the difference between me, you know, swinging a baseball bat at your head while you're looking that way.
Versus me doing this with a baseball bat saying, you should duck. I'm about to swing it. Right?
One of them is interesting. Maybe it's entertaining. And the other is brutal.
And so if we're going to do this, we need to do it with love, not hate. We can't hate people
because they reject because they resist because they don't get it. Right? We shouldn't, we shouldn't
think, you know, that we need to hate the banks because they don't custody Bitcoin or hate your
government because they don't embrace Bitcoin or hate your boss because the company doesn't buy
Bitcoin. Right? That it's a natural reaction, but it's an immature reaction. What we ought to think is
they're going to need it. They don't understand it. It's understandable. They don't understand it. It's
the most shocking economic thing that's happened in their life. Maybe it's the most shocking thing to
happen in economics in 100,000 years. It's a fire raging. Fire is scary. People run from the fire.
Don't wave the fire in your sister's face. Right? Don't set your family on fire.
Right? Have a little bit of consideration there. Right? With such a powerful idea. So
I think the world's a better place if we spread Bitcoin, but I think we got to do it with love.
Thank you. You already made it halfway through the video and I'm really, really grateful to have
you here. Two things make this channel possible. You as a watcher and listener who keep supporting
this channel and another one is all the Bitcoin brands that I partner up with, like 21 Bitcoin,
who support me from the very start and where I personally buy my Bitcoin from. With code Robin,
you even get a discount when you buy Bitcoin with them and now also Bitbox. Bitbox is the simplest
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I also see that approach that you just described. You did with MicroStrategy and you explained it
in a lot of interviews how you came up with, like, I want to introduce Bitcoin to MicroStrategy.
And now you talk about Bitcoin, you invest in Bitcoin and now with MicroStrategy,
Orange, you also want to build with Bitcoin. And I asked before this interview online on Twitter,
like, what is the question for Michael Sela? What should I ask him? A lot of responses, but one of
the most common ones was like, what's the future of MicroStrategy? And with that also, what's the
future of Bitcoin scaling? Layer 2, Layer 3 technology. And what do we all build on Bitcoin?
Well, MicroStrategy is going to continue to raise capital to buy Bitcoin. We're going to
continue to engage in Bitcoin advocacy efforts to advocate Bitcoin institutional adoption for
institutional investors. We're going to advocate adoption of Bitcoin by companies, both public
companies and private companies. We're going to work on advocating and educating organizations on
implementing Bitcoin treasury strategies. We're going to spend a lot of time advocating to get
all the financial institutions in the world to embrace and adopt Bitcoin. We're going to
continue to develop software. We've got great business intelligence software and thousands and
thousands of very loyal customers. We're enhancing that with digital intelligence, what you'll
call AI. So that's an obvious thing for us to do in our core business. But we also have R&D
efforts in the Bitcoin business where we focus upon developing applications or integrating things
like lightning to see how we might provide that sort of service to enterprises. And we work on ideas
like enterprise identity as they're a way for us to combine public private key cryptography
and digital signatures and the Bitcoin network with enterprise security and cyber security
and anti fraud and anti-fishing type software. So that'll keep us busy.
And each one of those things is something that just takes a lot of time and sensitivity to work out.
But that doesn't really address your second question, which is the bigger and more important question.
How does Bitcoin scale? And I think the answer to that question is Bitcoin scales in
myriad ways to say thousands of ways might be an understatement, maybe tens of thousands,
hundreds of thousands, millions of ways. There are 8 billion people on the planet and every single
one of them encounters Bitcoin is going to think about how they wish to interact with Bitcoin and
they've all got a different opinion. The three-year-olds that that is interested in Bitcoin will have a
different view than a 15-year-old, will have a different view than a 20-year-old, a 30-year-old,
a 40-year-old, an 85-year-old in China will have a different view than a 92-year-old person in
Russia. And they will have a different view than someone in the United States in their mid-60s.
And the views will be different depending upon your religion,
whether what your sect is, what your profession is, what your physical capabilities are.
And so there's going to be a lot of views there. Then there's 330 million companies in the world.
And you know a few of them. There's Apple. When Apple encounters Bitcoin and they're one of
the more important companies in the world, a billion people rely upon them. When Apple and
Count is Bitcoin, I think they may look at anything. Wait a minute. Bitcoin, multi-signature,
cloud. What if we actually make the Apple watch a signing device and combine it with the iPhone
and combine it with the third signing device on a laptop. And then we do something with the cloud.
And Apple becomes a bank that has hundreds of billions of dollars of assets and we secure that
via the Apple cloud. And I suppose if Apple does that, then Google will take a different view.
Well, we don't want Apple to do that. We want that to be done in Android. And at some point,
Samsung will say, well, wait a minute. Samsung phones are used for Android and we can put the
secure element in that. And we'll take a different view. And at some point, you're going to have
Qualcomm say, well, wait a minute. We provide the chips that are used in these phones. And maybe
our chip, maybe it ought to have a Bitcoin miner in it or maybe our chip ought to have a secure
element to store your cryptographic keys so that our chip can be the right signing device.
And then you're going to have all the Chinese companies and the Chinese government will say,
well, you know, maybe we don't want Apple and Google to do this. And we want our companies
Huawei to do this. And so you're going to have government, so it'll take a view.
You're going to have companies that are going to take a view. You're going to have other companies
like block and block is going to say, well, we want to be better than Apple or Google. And so
block will ship the bitkey and block will embed Bitcoin support into cash app.
And block will do that in the United States. But block doesn't operate in China. And there's going
to be a company in China. And they're going to think, well, maybe we'll just copy what block does.
And we'll just do it in China. And that's going to work for them because the Chinese government's
probably going to make it very difficult for an American company to do what American companies do
in China. So then there's going to be some people that are going to say, well, I don't want to trust a
company. Okay, well, you know, when you actually buy a coal card or you buy a treasure or a ledger,
you're trust to a company. So what do you mean by not trust a company, right? Well, I'm not going
to trust a company to store my keys. Well, so what are you going to do? I'm going to buy one of those
steel plate titanium plates. And I'm going to hammer my keys on the titanium plate.
Okay, well, how's that going to get shipped to you? Well, I'm going to FedEx that you're going to
trust that company. Right. I'm going to put it in a bank, save deposit. That's another company.
Right. There's going to be a whole set of people. They'll take a view that I don't trust that
company, but I'll trust this or I'll trust myself. And that's going to evolve. Right. I actually
think how does Bitcoin scale? Yeah, what you're going to end up with is a set of entities that
self-custody on the base layer, the OGs, you know, Bitcoin maximalist, especially the ones with
large amounts of Bitcoin. And they will self-custody. Then you will see a set of Bitcoin banks.
Cash app is the Bitcoin bank. Fidelity and Coinbase will be Bitcoin banks, standard charter and
other custodians, NIDIG and Anchorage. They will be Bitcoin banks. You'll probably see 10,000,
20,000, 50,000 Bitcoin banks. And they will be exchanges, custodians. They'll start to offer
other services, maybe trading, maybe yield, maybe credit, or maybe just buy selling custody.
But you'll see them. And then, you know, how will the scale? You know, you can send Bitcoin
cash tag to cash tag right now. And it's instant and free. And you'll see a lot of that layer three
custodial transactions going on. But when there's 50,000 or 100,000 Bitcoin banks,
they will want to transact high speed with each other, but they probably won't go to the base layer.
They'll probably go to a layer two, maybe a lightning. And so you'll see,
you'll see a lot of layer two protocols, lightning being the obvious one where people open up
channels. And you'll see a layer three to a layer three do high frequency final settlements
or settlements with a layer two. Maybe I want to do 100,000 transactions an hour, you know,
in a channel system between 42,000 counter parties or 11,000 or something. So I think you're going
to see a growth in layer two's, a growth in layer three's, you're going to see layer, you're
going to see the transactions on layer one get bigger. I mean, I don't think the Bitcoin scales by
$22 transactions, you know, half the transaction, the average transaction size is going to go
to 2000 and 20,000 and 200,000 and 2 million and 20 million. Maybe at some point, you'll see,
the smallest transactions are, you know, million fee-hot terms, I mean, in Bitcoin terms, who knows.
But you'll see the transactions get much larger on the base layer. You'll see the fees will go up.
The block rewards will go down. Right, the, um, there'll be an explosion in layer two options.
There'll be an explosion in layer three options. One day, you'll get to the point where,
you know, if everybody with an iPhone can buy, sell and send Bitcoin instantly on the iPhone,
right, you might see a billion transactions a day on that layer three network and,
and how will that integrate with Google and everything else? Who knows? I think there'll be layer fours.
One way that, um, the Bitcoin scaling right now is with ETFs. So what is an ETF? You know, an ETF
is wrapped Bitcoin in a way. It's like, I can, I can send you a share of IBIT and,
they're moving 500 million to a billion dollars a day in transaction fees.
So you're, you're talking $250 billion or $300 billion a year in transactions
in the IBIT network. Okay, so if I said I got an app and people are going to do $300 billion
of payments on it, you would think that's scaled. Well, you know, it is scaling.
You know, people would say, well, some people don't like certain types of scaling. That'd be like,
I, you know, there are Bitcoiners that don't like the idea that, uh, that there's money flowing
into ETFs. But what I would say is 95% of the economic benefit from the arrival of the ETF,
uh, has gone to the Bitcoiners that don't have ETFs that don't, that disagree, right? If you
disagree with the ETF, if you think that's a bad idea and you didn't buy one, you made 20 times as
much money in the last five months as the people that disagree with you and bought the ETF.
So if you're enemy, just, just gave you 20 times as much as they just got and everybody
benefited, are they really your enemy? Right? That doesn't seem like it, right? Bitcoin went from
30,000 to 65, 70,000. All the people that don't like the ETFs are the beneficiaries. 95% of the
Bitcoin isn't in the ETFs. In fact, in fact, if you look very closely, I think, um, yeah, there's
maybe a million Bitcoin in the ETFs, but there was 650,000 Bitcoin in gray scale before the ETFs.
So there's probably only net 1% of the Bitcoin has net flown into,
flow to the ETF, but the price of Bitcoin double, which is worth 700 billion dollars. So if I
were looking at that, I could say, well, it looks like 693 billion dollars of economic energy went
to people that hate the ETFs because of the ETFs. Right? So you see, it's not something to fear.
Right? Not on a, not on a, not on a basic level, but they would say, but wait a minute, they're
centralizing. Well, 1%, 1% of the Bitcoin supply is, is it really centralized? 1% is split between 34
eat 33 ETFs that didn't exist other than gray scale. So there was gray scale that had 650 Bitcoin,
and now there's 34 ETFs, and they've actually decentralized because most of the Bitcoin in gray scale
went into black rock and fidelity and other places. So, um, you know, it's one of the reasons I say,
you need to be humble. Don't, don't think you understand Bitcoin better than Bitcoin, because it's
not clear to me that the ETFs aren't decentralizing the network. What's happened with, uh, the ETFs is,
they massively scaled it. They've driven the trading of Bitcoin, the transactions up. They've
drawn huge pulls of capital into the network. They have normalized it. They've created lots of
political support for Bitcoin. Um, and they solve, um, they solve a bunch of problems. They're
applications of Bitcoin that solve problems that impair adoption. One problem that they solve
is convenience. There are a lot of people where like, you could pick up the phone and say, I want you
to buy 22 million dollars of Bitcoin over the next six hours at the average VWAP price, and you're
going to execute that in, I don't know, 5,000 individual transactions. You can do that in 10 seconds
with an ETF and without putting up any money, you know, whereas before the ETFs, that would have
taken six months to set up all those accounts and you'd have to sit at your computer.
And the people that can actually do that of the money, they don't have the computer skills.
You know, you're 22. You can probably trade it at a computer. When you're 73 years old and you've
got the 20 million bucks, you can do this. Hey, Bob, buy 20 million dollars worth of Bitcoin via
Ibit click. That's what you can do. So they solve the convenience problem. They solve the access
problem, but they also solve a custody problem. That person doesn't want a custody. You know,
the 65 year old person, they don't want a custody. Like, I don't want to be kidnapped.
You think that I want to go on television and say, yeah, I saw I've all my Bitcoin. It's like,
you know, and this key around my neck here, please don't kidnap me, right? I mean, those people don't,
you know, you want to have it with institutional custodian, right? And so it solves problem of
custody, but then it solves the third problem, which is compliance and capital controls.
There are a lot of companies. Let's take millennium, right? They have two billion dollars of
Bitcoin via Ibit via these ETFs, two billion. Okay. They couldn't buy the underlying Bitcoin,
if they wanted to. They don't buy their charter. It wouldn't, it wouldn't meet their compliance
roles. So they can either buy two billion dollars worth of rap Bitcoin or they can buy zero.
It's very black and white, two billion, zero. You know, you can be obfuscate. Well, blah, blah,
they should just, they should set up the account and set up their own keys and do it because if
they don't, they're stupid, but they're not stupid. They have more money than you have, right? I mean,
they have infinitely more money than everybody that criticizes them. They must not be that stupid,
right? They're pretty smart, right? They make huge amounts of money. Anybody that can accumulate tens
of billions of dollars of capital probably isn't, you know, has something going for them. They simply
have a system where there are compliance controls and their charter are such that they can trade on
a certain set of exchange in a certain way. And if you do business the way they do business,
do it their way. You get the billion dollar order. You do it your way. You get the zero dollar
order, right? That's another lesson of sales. The customer is right. Do business the way the customer
wants to do it. And now let's go to this last point, capital control. How is Bitcoin going to scale?
Well, in China, Bitcoin is going to scale via an ETF in Shanghai that allows you to buy
rap Bitcoin, which will be custodyed by a bank in Shanghai regulated by and overseen by the Chinese
government. The Chinese will embrace Bitcoin. They just don't embrace the ability for any individual
to take it out of their country. Right. Sometimes we get we confuse two objectives.
Do you want, you know, are you in favor of Bitcoin being successful? Or are you in favor of
eliminating capital controls in the world? You see, this is a political objective. You know,
you might feel that you disagree with the Chinese policy, which is you should not be able to
move more than $50,000 a year out of China. You disagree with that policy.
But that's not the same as wanting Bitcoin to be successful. Are you against the Chinese
government or are there law or are you in favor of Bitcoin? So, you know, if you insist that I have to
be able to buy non-KYC Bitcoin in China and custody it myself and move it, you know, where I want
and not report it to the Chinese government, you see, you've signed up to a much more ambitious
agenda. Right. I'm in favor of complete sovereignty of the individual, complete privacy,
complete freedom to transact and Bitcoin. Okay. Fine. It is China. There's 1.5 billion people in it,
right? And so the question is, are you likely to get them to change that policy in the next 12 months
or 12 years? You know, you can try to get a country to change your policy. It's called revolution.
If you have enough guns and you want the top, if you want the fight and die for what you believe,
you can be a Castro or Stalin or a Mao or Ho Chi Minh or fill in the blank, put in your favorite
revolutionary. You can do it. But on the other hand, if you just want Bitcoin to be successful,
when you hear the Bank of Shanghai is rolling out a Bitcoin ETF, custody to the Bank of Shanghai,
you would say that's great. That's going to give access to Bitcoin to 1.5 billion people in China.
Okay. And they're going to buy a bunch of Bitcoin. The price of Bitcoin is going to go up to
$10 million coin. So here's the question. Do you want the billion people in China to be rich?
And do you want to be rich while the Chinese government still has a bunch of laws that you may or
may not agree with? Or do you want the people in China to be poor and you to be poor while the
Chinese government has a set of laws that you don't agree with? Or do you think that you're so great,
you're Superman, that you can just go and topple the entire government by barking on Twitter?
I just don't think that you're going to topple an entire sovereign nation with your ideology. So
how's Bitcoin scale? Right? Bitcoin scales in layers. And it's, you know, it scales when 100,000 banks
custody Bitcoin. It scales with hundreds or thousands of ETFs. It scales when every technology
company builds Bitcoin into their mobile app. It scales with a lot of a lot of Bitcoin OG Maxis
at the base layer that hold their own keys. But even so, you put five in a room and let them debate
what's their favorite signing device. I'll go back and forth, right? Multiseg, single,
sig, you know, how, you know, what's your succession plan? You know, should you give your husband or
your wife, you know, your private keys? What about your kids? When do you give, you know, it's like
there's a lot of stuff to be worked out. So ultimately, all adoption is good for Bitcoin.
Right? Every single company that embraces Bitcoin is good. When BlackRock embraces Bitcoin and they
launch the IBIT ETF, what did they do? They drive up the price of Bitcoin and create hundreds of
billions of dollars of wealth for everybody else. What else do they do? They created a massive demand
for self-custody in the banking system. You know, a lot of people say not your keys, not your coin,
right? Well, what about the, what if the banks want to keep their own keys? Like, like, for example,
if you're in favor of being able to keep your own keys, then why would you deny a corporation
the ability to keep their keys? A bank is a sort of corporation and they provide custody service
for people as a business. So why can't they have their keys? Why can't they have Bitcoin?
So there's a rule called SAB 121. SAB 121 was put in place by the SEC in the US and it effectively
prohibits banks in the United States from custody and Bitcoin. And when all the ETFs got approved,
all of the Wall Street firms started lobbying to have SAB 121 repealed because they want all
those banks to be able to custody their Bitcoin because they'd like to do business with State Street
and BNY, Melon and Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley and JP Morgan. So here you see an example of,
of an organization adopts Bitcoin in a way that isn't a purest idea. And that organization lobbies
for a better regulatory framework to get other organizations to start self-custodating Bitcoin.
And those organizations, they then go and they get everybody in the Senate and everybody in the
Congress to vote to repeal the law. So the individualist who doesn't believe in a corporation,
who doesn't trust banks, who doesn't trust companies, that person probably doesn't have the
influence to convince the Senate, the House, the banking lobby to vote to repeal a rule that
prevents other corporations from custodying Bitcoin. So I think there's just a very rich dynamic.
And when I look at Bitcoin, I think it's a mistake to think the network is only scaled if people
are nodes. One conventional model people have, which I think leads them astray, is that when they
think about the network, they only think of people like themselves. Just people like me.
Well, why not corporations as nodes? What about family? What about when there's 10 people in a
family? Well, is that 10 nodes? Is it as it failed if there's one person that has the money for
the other nine? Well, what if the nine are kids, communities of zero and eight? Why can't one person
have the keys for the 10 kids? Right? And if that's the case, then why not a community church?
Why not a football club? You know, why can't the football club have their keys? You know, why can't a
city? Why can't a company? Why can't a bank? Right? If banks hold money and trust for people that
are not even alive yet, and they're trustee, and there's a reason why not. So I think the network is
more decentralized when there are a lot of corporations that are custodying Bitcoin. Right? And
it's a counterintuitive idea. Most people think custodians are a bad thing. They want non-Costodian.
Well, wait a minute. You're a custodian. Why? Why is it if you're a better custodian than a
professional custodian, does that make you a better dentist than your dentist? And does that make
you a better doctor than your doctor? And does that make you a better airline pilot than the guy
in front of the airplane right now? Since you're, I mean, why not just take this to the extreme, right?
Why don't you operate on yourself? Right? So I think the early crypto community had these bad
experiences with crappy fly-by-night exchanges and unreliable custodians, and it caused them to
decide not your keys, not your coin. But I don't think that's the right lesson for the next decade.
I think the right lesson for the next decade is you should have everybody, you should have a
situation where everybody in the world is able to custody Bitcoin. Every country, every company,
every institution, every family, every individual, every entity, and even non-persons, like what about
an AI? What if you release an artificial intelligence? Why can't they custody? So in that world,
things are a lot richer. You're like, well, I don't trust a company. Well, I mean, that's stupid.
You do trust a company. You were probably born in a hospital where a doctor didn't drop you
or had to kill you. So everybody trusts something, right? You trust a company to generate the electricity
that makes the internet work. And so it's really a question of, are we going to power up the entire
world with digital energy? It's not just for individuals, it's for everybody and everything.
And I make one last point on the subject, which is, if you're an individual and you hold Bitcoin
in self-custody, in Austria, you're safer if the Bank of England and a bank in Italy,
and an EU central bank and the Fed and a bank of China all hold Bitcoin.
Right? Because if you want to protect the individual from the crushing power of the nation's state,
when your government decides to take it away from you or when whatever the local bank decides
take it away from you, your best protector is their competitor. You really want the bank of China
to hold Bitcoin. They will protect you from a powerful entity in the US. You want the US to hold
Bitcoin to protect you against the Russian government. You want the Russian government to hold Bitcoin.
So you want governments to have Bitcoin. You want banks to have Bitcoin. You want large corporations.
Apple computer will protect you from being victimized by Microsoft and Google. If they decide to,
you know, to impair your Bitcoin, right? Maybe Google puts some secret thing and they prevent,
you know, prevent you from using Bitcoin freely and their competitor offers you a better solution.
Integrity is achieved and security is achieved through balance of power.
Through the balance of power of entities more powerful than you. Right? Ultimately,
you know, it's you can't do it yourself. You need you need mega corpse that are mega powerful,
but you need more than one. And ideally, you have a bunch of them in competition with each other.
When I look at Bitcoin, I think, you know, how Fanny said, maybe the destiny of Bitcoin is to be a
settlement network for high powered money connecting Bitcoin banks. You know, if you read his
early work there, right? Eventually, there's a bunch of Bitcoin banks and they're settling with
each other 100 million or a billion dollars at a time. And then they're all doing all these individual
transactions. But, you know, I look at the Bitcoin and I look at how it's evolving. And I think about,
I think about this this vision and it occurs to me that the existing banking system
is a 50,000 banks all primarily capitalized on the dollar. Right? The Chinese currency is pegged to the dollar.
Some Middle East currencies pegged to the dollar. The euro is effectively pegged to the dollar.
The dollar is pegged to the dollar. Right? So you've either got something effectively pegged to the
dollar or you've got something collapsing. Right? So the entire world banking system is effectively
pegged to a fiat asset, the dollar, which is collapsing whatever 7 to 10% a year.
And it's all cleared through one node. Right? One central node. And people understand why that's not
a good idea. But I think it's a mistake to conclude, oh, and therefore banking is bad.
The problem is not banking. The problem is you have a single toxic capital asset and a fragile
centralized network. Imagine a world where 50,000 banks all used Bitcoin as the capital asset
and they cleared peer to peer with each other. And so I replaced a defective fiat capital structure
with a perfect monetary structure called Bitcoin. And I replaced a network that cleared through
a single node where a very fragile set of correspondent banks. And I replaced that with 50,000 banks
clearing peer to peer. And then hang on that network, 500,000 big companies. And then put
below that network, hang 50 million institutions and then plug into that a billion families.
And then step back and ask yourself the question, does that feel better or worse
than what we have right now in the Bitcoin system? And is that better or worse than what we have right
now in the fiat system? And it feels to me like it's a lot better than the fiat system.
Right? You know, if you if you went to the guy that runs the Bank of Australia or the Bank of
Austria or the Bank of China or the Bank of whatever you said, how would you like to have an asset
which doesn't lose 7 to 10% of its value every year? And how would you like to be able to
settle with any other bank in the world here to peer? And it's an upgrade for them, right?
So it's an upgrade to the existing system. And then if you look at the Bitcoin system, it's like,
what have I said to you as a Bitcoiner, you don't have to worry about your nation's state attacking
you if you're Chinese because the Americans will protect you. And you don't have to worry if you're
Russian about the Russians attacking Bitcoin because the Chinese and the American and the Indians
and the Europeans are going to protect the network. And if I went to a European and say, you don't
have to worry about your country taking away your Bitcoin because the Americans will disagree and
the Chinese will disagree and everybody else will disagree. If that was the case, then I think you
achieve a much greater degree of security and sovereignty in all of these entities that enter the
party that join the network. They're not making it worse. They're making it better for you,
for everybody. And they're entering into a new world. And so maybe banks don't have to be crappy.
Maybe we can have good banks. If we're going to sit and rail about the problem of using Fiat as a
store of value, we might stop and pause and say, well, maybe if I ran an institution where I'm
required by the regulator to use a defective store of value, maybe that's my problem. And if this is
alternative, maybe we can introduce a solution that will allow them to recount the lies
with a better technology. And then you're just left with the question of, you know,
is the institution useful to the world or not? And the free market will decide that. Some banks
don't provide any value and they'll disappear. But there are certainly companies that do things
that we like done. Maybe the future biggest bank in the world is Apple computer. And Apple is going
to give us easy to use safe multi-sig that six-year-olds can figure out. And I don't know. But
it seems to me that Bitcoin is going to scale with the help of all the big companies,
with the help of all the big banks, with the help of all the governments, with the help of
every innovator and every entrepreneur. Everybody has a role to play in this. I think we should welcome
them all. And you might have an opinion. You might be, might be thinking, well, I hate that,
or I don't like that, or I like that. Well, it's the free market. You're one person. Are you smarter
than the collective intelligence of eight billion people over the next hundred years,
including all the eight trillion AI? Is everybody get spun off? Do you think you're smarter than that?
And I think what Bitcoin teaches you is humility to say, no, you're not smarter than everybody else
in the human race. You're certainly not smarter than everyone in the human race that's yet to be born.
So, chill out and let humanity do its thing and let Bitcoin do its thing. Because it's working pretty
well so far. And I think it'll keep working. I love it a lot, what you just said. When I have a
thousand questions, but we have to come to the end routine of the podcast. And we have a special
end routine where the previous guest is asking a question for the next guest without knowing who
actually is the next guest. And I found that question so soothing for you, which brings in a whole,
maybe a whole new topic. What is the one thing that you have that is really important for you
that you could not buy with money? A mission, a mission, right? The Bitcoin mission,
right? That's very important to me, the opportunity to make a contribution to the human race by
introducing and advocating this new idea. And before Toshi, I didn't have that. And after
Toshi, I have that. And I'm very grateful for that opportunity. A mission gives life meaning.
I love it a lot. I usually ask my guest before I enter podcast to shout out their channels,
but I think everybody already knows you and everybody already follows you. So I just end with
like a thank you. And that's the one question. The one input from my community that I got a lot,
I should say thank you to you for taking the time to actually make the Bitcoin adoption drive.
And this is a really cool mission and an extremely great that we have you on our Bitcoin team.
And we appreciate that a lot. So thank you Michael and I think I can speak for some of my communities
when I say thank you for that. Thanks for the opportunity. Perfect and I'll be back tomorrow with another
episode. Bye bye.